Another Ostheer

[Bigpop]

I like the idea of having Army Group "X" as a "doctrine" choice. In all honesty I would say it might be cool to make all 3 named after each army group and have them effectively resemble the army group you selected.

Army Group North would be more defensive with elite infantry and arty. No real doctrine armor since they continually had the group's armor elsewhere on the front for extended periods. Maybe some sort of defensive bonuses etc etc.

Army Group Center would have some abilities to make their armor better and perhaps have a particular off map call in for armor since they had the most (2 Panzer Groups) attached to it. Also maybe an ability much like FTFL only you get the bonuses only when your in ENEMY territory, so as to help with the offensive push.

Army Group South would have lots of mechanized units as they borrowed heavily From Guderian's force during the push. Units like the 29. Motorized Division were part of Army Group Center initially but transferred over to South during the battles of encirclement. Also maybe some air cover "bombing runs" for lack of a better term. Maybe have a mechanized off map call in for this army group. OR have a squad of Romanian infantry come it (similar to Luft Ground forces for PE).

Overall if we are trying to develop something even somewhat similar to historical accuracy, the Ostheer needs to be quick on the attack, lightning fast and blitzkrieg oriented, in my opinion. They have to be at least somewhat similar to the US in the sense that they are the aggressor early on and put lots of early pressure on the enemy. Having a "campy" Ostheer doesn't make much sense, since Wehrmacht is already like that! The Germans stormed into Russia and it wasn't until the very end of '41 that they were slowed. So to me, it makes perfect sense to attack!

Does anyone know how the Ostheer gains veterancy? Or has that yet to be released or decided on? I would think they should earn it as the PE and US does. Would make sense to me. No need to get too fancy with veterancy in this case and make some crazy new system that goes haywire! lol Perhaps researching it as Wehrmacht does now could be acceptable as well since the troops that invaded Russia had much more combat experience from Poland and France (and the doctrinal research done even prior to the war?). I'm open to solutions/ideas with this issue.

My initial idea for units would be to do away with Volksgrenadiers because they wouldn't have been around in '41-'42! Have a Fusilier squad as your basic initial troop choice. They can have a couple minor upgrades and also perhaps can get the use of grenades (like the ones Grens normally get in the Wehrmacht because they aren't that great frankly). Have a SS Grenadier squad as the next tier where they have lots of abilities and weapon upgrade options along with grenade bundles. As a nice nod to perhaps the single best (and one of the most heavily engaged) German divisions, make an elite Ostheer infantry unit you can get called "Großdeutschland squad" or "Großdeutschland something or other", from the famed regiment and later division, Großdeutschland! They consist of 5 bad ass members that come with some AT (maybe one schrek?) and come equipped with Gewehr '41s with the ability to be equipped with an assortment of weapons like MP40s, or the StG44. Perhaps they should also have an ability to fire up, break suppression or sprint. These would obviously be "Elite" troops but I envision them as a cross between KCHs and Rangers/Airborne (basically the elite infantry, with hefty reinforce costs).

I would make the Mark III perhaps a 2nd tier unit or a very early 3rd tier (I know the Ostheer may not have tiers like the Wehrmacht but I think most understand what I mean!) so you can get quick and early Mark III armor for the Ostheer. This is offset by the fact that their survivability isn't the greatest. They should only be minimally effective against a T34 and only at CLOSE ranges.

This is just bare bones for now but just to get some thoughts down and see what people think!

[Loupblanc]

 Yea un-upgraded Pz3 shouldn't be effective against
 T34+ unless really close. Akin to Pz4 stubbie?

 Otherwise, we really don't know about OstHeer. It's all
 about Soviet Union right now.

[GeneralSatan]

i beleve that the biggest thing that will be missing from the entire mod is the introduction of the Waffen SS who were the most battle-hardned units to fight the USSR at the outbreak of war in '41. Not to mention that it was the SS who comitted the most atrocities as well. They had the majority of all the new weaponry that was constantly being sent to the front.

As for the Panzer III idea, that sounds the most likely, as it was the Pzr III's and IV's that did the majority of the fighting. If i remember correctly, there were also quite a few "assault guns" used during the inital stages of the conflict in Russia. Just something to consider 

[Blue]

I would like to see Ostheer's doctrines have VERY heavy anti-infantry properties. During the war, the Germans deployed a huge number of artillery guns, mortars, howitzers, etc... to the eastern front. It being reflected in their doctrines would be awesome.

[Ryousan]

I would like to see Ostheer's doctrines have VERY heavy anti-infantry properties. During the war, the Germans deployed a huge number of artillery guns, mortars, howitzers, etc... to the eastern front. It being reflected in their doctrines would be awesome.

Every faction has its "artillery doctrine" so in one way or another you will see it

[luz777]

I would think that Panzer and StuG III's would be the mainstay of the Ostheer tanks.

I'm also fairly sure that an SS unit would be included as elite infantry, and an Axis side will finally get a howitzer of some kind, 10.5 leFH 18 I'd say.

[Ryousan]

Historically the mainstay of the german invaders were the Panzers III and IV and of course their variants, Stugs become a more common sight during and in the aftermath of the Battle of Kursk

[Aouch]

Why the heck do all people want to see SS-units?
I would hate it see the Eastern Front mod being spoiled with something like that.
Ostheer is Heer, not fucking SS. 

[Ryousan]

Why the heck do all people want to see SS-units?
I would hate it see the Eastern Front mod being spoiled with something like that.
Ostheer is Heer, not fucking SS. 

Its not like we are making a whole SS faction , but to be honest the Waffen-SS played a mayor role in the Eastern Front campaign, not to mention they were the first to field the most advanced panzer models and oftenly were the sperhead of all german operation.

Waffen-SS has its place, denying that is...Welll...let say its not right.

[Voop_Bakon]

Agreed, Ostheer should have some kind of SS unit, perhaps a T4 infantry like the knights cross? At the minimum, they should be a call in unit for some kind of breakthrough doctorine

[Ryousan]

SS fits better in a doctrine, being part of one or having one of their own. Anyway, Fro me, Waffen-SS is a must be in the Ostheer

[Bigpop]

Speaking of armor, or AT in any form, that helped the Germans so much, ESPECIALLY in the east, the FlaK 88 should most definitely make a return. Perhaps with a new twist however (this could be normal or doctrine based, depending) but if you were to have a half track on the field, making the 88 mobile. Now settle down i'm not saying you should be able to build one 88 and just move it along NP anywhere you want. The drawback to it being mobile would be the extreme vulnerability of the gun and crew while being moved and it would take a good amount of time to re-deploy.

The Germans used the 88 to great effect, and especially offensively and to stem Russian counter attacks. That gun on many occasions was the only thing standing between the Russian offensive and German collapse! There are so many stories of the PaKs not being able to penetrate T-34s what-so-ever and so they had to rely on self propelled guns and FlaK 88s and some crazy infantry attacks using grenades and bundles to disable the beasts. Just a thought to put a new twist on an old idea.   

[Nubrannosaurus]

Why the heck do all people want to see SS-units?
I would hate it see the Eastern Front mod being spoiled with something like that.
Ostheer is Heer, not fucking SS. 

Its not like we are making a whole SS faction , but to be honest the Waffen-SS played a mayor role in the Eastern Front campaign, not to mention they were the first to field the most advanced panzer models and oftenly were the sperhead of all german operation.

Waffen-SS has its place, denying that is...Welll...let say its not right.

True, the SS played a significant role on the eastern front, but I think they should be left out for a number of reasons.  One, Relic purposely avoided the SS and the swastika because they wanted the Germans to represent “the Fatherland” rather than Nazi ideology.  I couldn’t care less personally if the SS were involved, but it is a sensitive subject for some people (for good reasons) and leaving it out does not hamper this game at all.  Two, it’s historically accurate, yeah, but there’s a bunch of crap in this game that isn’t historically accurate.  The fact that Americans and British will be able to fight side-by-side on any map (and remember maps are supposed to represent historical regions, to a degree) with the Soviet Union is already inaccurate. 

The SS could be left out and simply replaced by some other elite unit -- it’s not hard to do. 

[Bigpop]

Why the heck do all people want to see SS-units?
I would hate it see the Eastern Front mod being spoiled with something like that.
Ostheer is Heer, not fucking SS. 

Its not like we are making a whole SS faction , but to be honest the Waffen-SS played a mayor role in the Eastern Front campaign, not to mention they were the first to field the most advanced panzer models and oftenly were the sperhead of all german operation.

Waffen-SS has its place, denying that is...Welll...let say its not right.

True, the SS played a significant role on the eastern front, but I think they should be left out for a number of reasons.  One, Relic purposely avoided the SS and the swastika because they wanted the Germans to represent “the Fatherland” rather than Nazi ideology.  I couldn’t care less personally if the SS were involved, but it is a sensitive subject for some people (for good reasons) and leaving it out does not hamper this game at all.  Two, it’s historically accurate, yeah, but there’s a bunch of crap in this game that isn’t historically accurate.  The fact that Americans and British will be able to fight side-by-side on any map (and remember maps are supposed to represent historical regions, to a degree) with the Soviet Union is already inaccurate. 

The SS could be left out and simply replaced by some other elite unit -- it’s not hard to do.

I agree they could. But alot of people support the idea of having them in SOME capacity. If it happens cool. If not it's understandable.

@Aouch I don't think anyone has trouble understanding the concept of the Ostheer but Heer and SS units fought alongside each other. You can have the Heer represented with 95% of the units and have the rest as SS. Doesn't mean anyone thinks the army is based on the SS at all. Just simply that they served mostly in these regions so it would make sense to see at least a small representation of them.

[Ryousan]

True, the SS played a significant role on the eastern front, but I think they should be left out for a number of reasons.  One, Relic purposely avoided the SS and the swastika because they wanted the Germans to represent “the Fatherland” rather than Nazi ideology.  I couldn’t care less personally if the SS were involved, but it is a sensitive subject for some people (for good reasons) and leaving it out does not hamper this game at all.  Two, it’s historically accurate, yeah, but there’s a bunch of crap in this game that isn’t historically accurate.  The fact that Americans and British will be able to fight side-by-side on any map (and remember maps are supposed to represent historical regions, to a degree) with the Soviet Union is already inaccurate.

The SS could be left out and simply replaced by some other elite unit -- it’s not hard to do. 

But CoH has already featured several SS divisions during British, American and panzer Elite Campaings.

-The SS Hohenstaufen Division.

-The SS Hitlerjugend Division

-And I think the SS Das Reich was also included.

Besides other have already included the SS.