EF - Balance Topic

[Marcus]

Hey guys, here we are, it's a nice day today, finally the game is out and we are all happy to play it..

But...Balance! ! !

Ok, this is the unstoppable BO for any 1vs1, u can do it also in team games (each player can do this, or you can just do this while your partner goes tanks):

- Eng + Eng + Eng
- Command Squad
- Eng
- Support Barracks
- Sniper + Sniper + PTRD + Sniper + PTRD
-(Outpost where u need it)

Game Over.

Bike spam? as soon as i get 1st ptrd (that would be my first unit on the field from the support center) u loose all the bikes

Mg spam? as soon as i get the first sniper squad u loose all the mgs on the field

Sniper spam? as soon as i get the first sniper squad u loose all the snipers on the field (because my sniper squad is made of 2guys, u kill one i kill your sniper)

Volks Spam + blitz nades? same

Fast T2? same

PG spam as PE? same

Fast AC? 1PTRD squad can rape it so fast, and if u have troubles u just need to build an outpost

Fast T2? same

Combined arms? same, engis + command squad with light artillery + snipers + ptrd own everything...

The only strategies that MAYBE (but i think they won't work) will work are piospam or fast T1 as PE (but fast T1 = u build T1 with the first PG squad and spam scout cars, rushing panzer IV to stop the ptrd spam)

The main problems related to russians are:
-When u gain upgrades you troops become unstoppable
-The Command squad is too strong, compare it with a gren squad (same cost), it is fairly better
-Too many abilities to break suppression
-Too many arty options from the early game (command squad has the free arty that is OP)
-You can spam a lot of troops without a good upkeep cost
-You can gain map control just as you are piospamming, but your troops are stronger than pios vet0
-Russian Faction has been designed to stop late game WM because they have no veterancy but they start already as good units, that means that all troops are stronger than wm troops unless WM has vet 3 (this means that a panther vs russian tanks is paper, you can call it a real "panther" once you get vet 3)
-Russians are a weak faction vs arty, this is true, but you can't get a good arty option vs them (nebels because mortars dies vs russian "howitzers" mortars) in 1vs1 because you need fuel and map control...
-Russians are a very spammable faction, combine this factor with americans or brits and you will have the biggest zombie army ever, if u play amis u go wsc and spam medic tents and get 4-5 free rifle squads in the first minutes, if u are brits u can have a tommy blob even faster... (because medics can get russian woundeds, i thought they couldn't while they can xD)
-I think (my personal thought) that u balanced the mod mostly playing vs an expert computer, that has more resources and stronger infantry/vehicles...that means that you made a faction that can't be compared to the other factions in PvP games because it can't be stopped in any way...(e.g. engis cost 150 MP, once u get sturmovie armor your engis are like rangers, they still cost 150MP but they are able to kill Stormtroopers with 2MP44, i can't stop that, no1 can stop that...)

My suggestion now is, let us play more games to study better Russians and see what units should be nerfed and how much, i assure you we can do a good job, try to play vs a good 1vs1 player as russians or vs russians using that strategy, try to stop it, if you are able to stop it and u think you have found a good strategy that write up here.

From now what i can say is:
-Nerf a bit the damage of conscripts and engis, nerf engis, conscripts, strelky and guards once they get their upgrades (they must loose vs a vet3 infantry units because they cost less and because they are really more spammable)
-Increase the upkeep of all russian units when u have more than 2/3 of them on the field...
-Increase the cost of the support barracks, slightly increase the cost of snipers and PTRD, like 300MP for both of them
-Decrese the damage of the mortars, at least a bit
-Nerf the Command squad, (HP and/or damage), or increase its cost, change the light artillery strike (it's a too easy mg counter atm), if you want to have it free change it (like 1howi strike on the field), or give it a cost (like a MP cost because of lack of munitions in the early game)
-Increase the cost of the Outpost (like 300MP)
-Decrease the damage of Engis flamers (it's like piospamming + flames, nerf a bit them)
-Decrease the damage of Partisans, they cost only 300 and they do their job like british commandos, that's bad.

These changes are not complete and they are related only to Russian infantry. I will update this post as soon as I can.

Peace. (Btw i love the game, finally something new! biggrin.gif )

[CerealKiller]

are you high?

[Marcus]

Yea I am really high.

[Aouch]

I agree with nearly everything Marcus said.
Especially those sappers are unstoppable in early game. They pwn 2 WH pios at the same time! And if it's true they only cost 150 MP (haven't played USSR yet and I don't want to play them) it's just OP.

However, as WH, especially if you spam MGs, which is the only effective counter I've seen yet (till snipers arrive...), you can gain 3CP in the first 2-4 mins. Which just doesn't feel right.

Also, I've thought the Commies were "caught by suprise" or something similiar. But ingame, the Soviets can win in early game by just spamming sappers, snipers and ptrds.
The command squad will erase every MG and the rest...
Let's just not talk about it.

Oh, I'm not a very highskilled player, but it seems like I'm not the only person to complain about the balancing.

[Venoxxis]

This guy has got the main reason why the russians are too strong.
Easiest way to see that these guys are stronger even without any tactics, just go for a computer match.
the 2nd match i was playing 2 soviets owned easily 2 wehr and 1 PE. damn hell, nah.

Really a awesome mod guys, really great work i love it and
i will go on playing it, but for a human vs human match this mod isnt really usufull (at least, isnt it yet) im sure you will get it right.

[WartyX]

We might already have a balance patch in the works.

[CerealKiller]

First of all your not supposed to play PE in 1v1 and ingeneries die like flies, having more than one is just bad, when they get suppressed they die before they even get a chance to crawl away. At least pios can retreat.

The soviets aren't that different from the other armies, the basic tactics still works, you can benefit from the no-retreating in many ways, encircle the enemy and you can kill entire battalions. It really sounds like you haven't even played a single games as the red army and just noobishly claim that they are OP!

The only thing that made any sense at all is the part about american med tents that are having one hell of a field day with all the conscripts running around dying everywhere.

If any of you are so sure that the red army is so powerful im always up for a game  (evil laughter)

[Crucifer K]

Alright, finally registered.
I just returned from playing 2 matches in 1v1, i gotta say Soviets are way to unbalanced, i read what Marcus sad i also agree with everything, way to much arty. Not to talk about how weak 88 was which is one of germans strongest shit.

I serioussly got pwned, i got half map do my usual tactics..
Soviets also can do mass spam really fast.. and mortar wow.. its like artillery shells its firering. But i do not know about Russian mortar if it was like that its okay i guess.. Wehrmacht doesnt have anything to beat the red army!

HOWEVER, im happy with Eastern Front, it really isamazing and fun. I bet there will be updates in the future soon.
btw whoever textured the Snow, GOOD JOB!

[CerealKiller]

flak 88 in 1v1? they don't really go together.

[Crucifer K]

We were just testing, how thing was verseus that and that the first match.

[ShotInTheHead]

I have just registered to mention that the Russians are too strong, yet as I see, somebody else has done that already in a very detailed way. ;-)
I have played two skirmish maps so far, the first time I chose Berlin, playing as Russians, the second time I chose Stalingrad, playing as Wehrmacht. Well, as Russians, you simply rush the map, so the Wehrmacht players have no chance of getting map control. When I played the Wehrmacht, the Russians had already conquered three quarters of the map when I was heading for the first checkpoints. The Russian units move faster, shoot as sharp as a butterfly knife cuts through living flesh, and construct buildings, as it seems, with lightening speed. When I played the Russians, I was astonished to be able to build heavy tanks after a few minutes. The Wehrmacht players did not even have a chance to enter their third phase. Instead, they were defeated as though they were noobs not knowing how to use the resources.
The Russian tanks take out anything you could throw against them. Infantry tanks can take 2-3 shots from a Tiger I (!) before they are destroyed. In a one on one fight, even a T34 proves stronger than a Tiger I, both firing at each other's fronts (!).
The Russian sniper teams defeat any German infantry whatsoever. They do not mind being fired at neither by mg squads, nor snipers, motorbicycles, panzer grenadiers, storm troops or pioneers. Mortars are taken out within seconds, Sturmhaubitzen (StuH) may take out one sniper team before they are destroyed by Russian AT soldiers.
Destroying two or three Russian squads usually ends in a 75-90% loss of German troops.
Within five minutes, the Russians had a winning point defended by mgs, sniper teams, AI tanks, medium tanks and heavy tanks, not to mention artillery strikes without pause--thus early in the game!
When I played the Russians, I experienced the same. Within a few minutes, one can build everything from light infantry to heavy tanks and artillery.

[CerealKiller]

Did you get shot in the head or something? some units needs their costs changed especially the mortar and some units should have their capping speed reduced to match the axis but its not game breaking.

[Crowsabove]

As for the tanks I think its reasonable to expect them to cause a lot more problems for the axis! Soviet tanks were expected to go toe to toe with the axis panzers and slug it out. It might take a little getting use to as wehr but i think having to deal with tanks that have some staying power will get easier. Though i guess the price might need a little change.

Agree with the mortar though i love it. And maybe a little increase on the sapper build time will slow the soviets early rush a little? idk they might be shitty but you can pump them out pretty fast. But the wehr are never suppose to get a majority of the map even with the offical relic "balanced" factions you find the wehr always holding on to its little corner for the first part of the game.

[Marcus]

"First of all your not supposed to play PE in 1v1 and ingeneries die like flies, having more than one is just bad, when they get suppressed they die before they even get a chance to crawl away. At least pios can retreat.

The soviets aren't that different from the other armies, the basic tactics still works, you can benefit from the no-retreating in many ways, encircle the enemy and you can kill entire battalions. It really sounds like you haven't even played a single games as the red army and just noobishly claim that they are OP!

The only thing that made any sense at all is the part about american med tents that are having one hell of a field day with all the conscripts running around dying everywhere.

If any of you are so sure that the red army is so powerful im always up for a game  (evil laughter)"

sarcasm?! :|

First of all, i am a top player on Company Of Heroes, i play ALL the factions on 1vs1 and 2vs2, i don't have problems playing PE vs americans and vs brits, we are talking about russians and you can't argue that russians win in 1vs1 vs PE because PE is underpowered because PE can beat brits and amis (even if we know that there some issues that must be fixed), we are talking about the fact that you can't beat russians, as PE or as WM...

All the points that i wrote are correct, i tried with Ra11..demonstrate me that i am wrong with proofs...
If you want to 1vs1 i have no problem, add XxRAxXMarcus2389, if you can't find me watch 2vs2 as americans, i am number 1 (MUAHMUAHMUAH...no... ) (kidding ofc, but don't be arrogant, i am sorry but you are wrong ^^ )

[pamp]

Did you get shot in the head or something? some units needs their costs changed especially the mortar and some units should have their capping speed reduced to match the axis but its not game breaking.

 Very interesting use of words to prove your point in your posts