The Wehrmacht in the East (Ostheer)

[Aouch]

The SdKfz-mounted quad-AA-gun doesn't really fit into my concept, because I've "movable guns" which has to be set-up like British emplacement.
It would maybe fit into the WH, since they can have their halftrack being upgraded individually, hence it doesn't work with my veterancy-upgrade and global-upgrade system.

@ Paciat: You've convinced me. I'll take all guns with 3.7cm out of the concept and now rather concentrate on 5cm, 7.5cm, 8.8cm and 10.5cm.
Panzer III now have the KwK38 L/42 with the possibility for a global upgrade to KwK39 L/60.

I've also changed some other aspects of my concept, for example it now feature Lord Rommel's 7.5cm leIG18 which can either functions as mortar or AT-gun. 

[2LTAndeh]

I really like how you've set up the doctrines historically. However, I think the Army Group North doctrine needs to be more defensively oriented and Army Group South needs to be more like how you've set up Army Group North. Yes in the early stages of Barbarossa Army Group North was very mobile, however when they reached Leningrad most of the mobile units were sent to Army Group Center and the majority of North was essentially static.

The Finnish troops and the Romanian troops are true to history, I simply suggest that Army Group North receive the heavy defenses that you give South keeping in mind that Leningrad was alot lot a WWI trench stalemate through much of the campaign and Army Group South received alot of support from Luftflotte IV ie. the Crimea, the Caucauses, Stalingrad etc. Its true that Leniningrad was bombed to oblivion over and over, I think it more appropriate that Army Group North doctrine focus more on artillery.

Anyway, to recap I love how you've styled the Doctrines, it just needs a little tweaking. Hopefully we will see a doctrine system like this in the final version.

[comrade2012]

it would be cool if the defensive wing of the Osthher had a wide selection of bunkers to build. It could be like the British!!!!

[Aouch]

@comrade: I think we shouldn't give the Ostheer too much static emplacements. Right now, Army Group South is already very defensive. Also, the heavy guns (Pak40 etc) "work" like British emplacements, except they're additionally mobile.

@2LTAndeh: Thank you for your advise! I'll work on it and try to improve it. 

[Werwolf]

This is my favorite Ostheer concept so far, though I have a few unit suggestions to help even things out a bit....... 

1.) Enable T3 Gebirgsjägers and HiWi squads to use 2x Eintossflammenwerfer 46 (disposable like the 'faust, for 35+m per use) for increased offensive capabilities. However, there is also a defensive penalty, making the squad more vulnerable for a short period of time.

2.) Enable Army Group North to produce either Flammpanzer II "Flamingo" / PzKpfw II(F) (Sd. Kfz. 122) or SdKfz.301 Borgward IV Ausf. C "Wanze" as specialized mobile units. It'll be up to the player to choose between infantry-killing (Flamingo) or tank-killing (Wanze) tactics. Ideally, the cost should be the same as a PzKpfw IV.

3.) Add 5-man Werwolf cells as a doctrine-specific special unit for Army Group South. Werwölfe were lightly-armed German guerilla cells trained in the use of anti-tank weapons ('faust, halfholladung) and setting up booby traps (teller mines, booby-trapping buildings and caps). These could be made concealable and summoned from nearby buildings via a doctrine-specific call-in: "Jugend, Sich wehren!" (like Fallschirmjäger, only they're easier to kill since they're guerillas) or alternately, available through a "Werwolf Versorgungslager" upgrade to the forward HQ: Werwolf Versorgungslager (enables recruitment of Werwolf cells; 150+m)>>Werwölfe. Cost = same as Fallschirmjäger.

[Aouch]

Einstossflammenwerfer sounds possible. 
The Flamingo/Wanze fits in my opinion better into Army Group Center. They could possibly replace the Marder and the Haubitze-Selbstfahrlafette.

Werwolfs? Never heard of them and this is the point where I can't agree with you: I think there is really no need for such a unit. Also, nobody knows them. Sounds like Overkill-Partisans to me.


BTW: I've written a light version of my concept. Check it out here. 

[Werwolf]

Werwolfs? Never heard of them and this is the point where I can't agree with you: I think there is really no need for such a unit. Also, nobody knows them. Sounds like Overkill-Partisans to me.


BTW: I've written a light version of my concept. Check it out here. 

maybe these could help:
http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=2T5YOy3iTYAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Werwolf&source=bl&ots=Hq1igZ3HK0&sig=Q25_W84oewDug61NosbiMw65kQY&hl=en&ei=
ZsnoS9ijIIjotgPf78DlBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf
This film also features the Werwölfe: "Europa" Directed by Lars von Trier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(film)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101829/

Overkill? not really, since as they were not frontline troops and could be killed easily (hence, they were cannon-fodder; though they could be competent tank hunters when camouflaged and in cover). Most of their activities involved propaganda and sabotage/booby trapping, and Goebbels even went so far as to call any armed German civilians "Werwölfe". Additionally, the Werwolf organization was said to have extensive resupply stashes, so in theory, a squad might also be able to give a munitions cooldown bonus to units within their immediate area... 

So, in a nutshell, they would differ from Soviet partisans because:
1.) They could double as tank hunters ('faust, hafhollhadung; possible 'schreck upgrade still open for debate).
2.) They could booby-trap buildings/strategic points and set mines or incendiary traps.
3.) They could provide a munitions cooldown bonus to neighboring units.
4.) These could be summoned from nearby buildings via a doctrine-specific call-in: "Jugend, Sich wehren!" (like Fallschirmjäger, only they're easier to kill since they're guerillas) or alternately, available through a "Werwolf Versorgungslager" upgrade to the forward HQ: Werwolf Versorgungslager (enables recruitment of Werwolf cells; 150+m to upgrade)>>Werwölfe.
5.) The camouflage ability would only be available in owned/allied territory (Werwölfe were primarily defensive units; this would also prevent Werwolf spams from sneaking into enemy bases unimpeded and causing havoc).
6.) Units attacking them would incur slight defensive penalties (Allied/Soviet troops were always paranoid because of the threat of Werwolf attacks, so they were more cautious; NKVD, however, would gain a lot of +xp by killing them).
7.) For additional balance, Werwölfe could be made not to be able to capture SPs, just booby-trap them (or they could be able to, only really really slowly).

It just struck me that there were no harrassment-and-sabotage-style units of this sort as of yet in EF, even though the real Ostheer tactics used were mixed combinations of blitzkrieg (in the early stages), scorched-earth, urban assault, propaganda warfare, and partisan (and counter-partisan) warfare. These tactics--- particularly after the Russians invaded the Sudetenland---were what spurred on the formation of the Werwölfe. While the Ostruppen were reduced to fighting withdrawals while forming wandering pockets and Festungs(fortresses), the Werwölfe put up a small yet determined resistance against the Russian rear echelons in the occupied territories. These guerilla attacks helped in slowing down the Soviet columns; enough to necessitate the distracted enemy into mounting cleanup operations and wasting resources.

Anyway, I think they'd make good campaign units for the OH and RA too (the Battle of Berlin comes to mind). 

[Blackbishop]

Werwolf... +1
I would like to see a unit like Werwolf in Ostheer too, in other threads, comrades were discussing about including an unit as spy, i think Werwolves could fit the role.

[Aouch]

To me it seems that Werwolves weren't important in the war, when their greatest known "success" (killing an inocent civilian) was made by Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht.
Desperate try to win the Endsieg, nothing more. 

Maybe Lord Rommel can tell us something more about them and if they're worth being part of EF.


BTW: Das Heimatland, not Die Heimatland.
EDIT: WTF I think I'm too tired...

[Blackbishop]

Indeed, just propaganda, there's no proof that they did anything during their "existence".

EDIT: I was thinking... asking for a unit like this is like asking for a maus?

[Aouch]

Somebody created a list with units which makes no sence at all and are a no-go for Ostheer.
Amongst them were the Maus, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger and various other units.

And I completly agree with this list.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

To me it seems that Werwolves weren't important in the war, when their greatest known "success" (killing an inocent civilian) was made by Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht.
Desperate try to win the Endsieg, nothing more. 

Maybe Lord Rommel can tell us something more about them and if they're worth being part of EF.


BTW: Das Heimatland, not Die Heimatland.
EDIT: WTF I think I'm too tired...

Telling about what? Sry, but i hadnt read everything new here at the suggestionboard
I hope that u dont want to have a abstract about the "Wehrwolf Bewegung" because for me this idea is absolutely needless for the Ostheer.
The Wehrwölfe ( i prefer WeHrwölfe instead of Werwölfe ) were build up in the last days of the war. Most of this "units" were planed but were never realized.
All in all the number of Wehrwolf-Kommando were sooooo small that their result were absolutely ineffective and inefficient.

And perhaps two point u hadnt reflected in relation with CoH and the Ostheer;
The Wehrwolf-Bewegung was a reaction against the great "collaborating" of the german population with the western alliies.
The idea of the Wehrwolf-Bewegung was to destroy the relation by assassinations, acts of sabotage and things like this. 
The "general point" behind the Wehrwölfen arent fitting realy into CoH and "my idea of the Ostheer" and so out of my personal view i'm totaly against the Wehrwolf-units at the Ostheer.

[Blackbishop]

I was almost sure that Wehrwölfen wouldn't pass Dev's QA .

[vietlord]

to me, werwolves could a doctrinal unit, stealthy good in sabotage and mine with a pfaust ability but useless in direct fight

[Werwolf]

I guess that settles the Werwolf thing.. 

Moving on, I still hope that the Flamingo and the Wanze would still make it as anti-infantry and anti-armour substitutes, respectively (esp. the Wanze instead of Marder II/III). I think these could possibly represent the various "interim solutions" used by the Ostheer on the Eastern Front...

The faster Flamingo combined with FlmPz. III and infantry support might make a good assault combination mid-game for Mitte...until bigger tanks come along that is. Then the Wanze and other heavier vehicles come in It wouldn't be OP, since the Russians attack with superior numbers anyway. 

What do you think?