Ostheer proposal n° 02854

[Loupblanc]

 I like the Pz2, myself. Make it a reward unit, or something.
 But in 1943-1945 NO WAY is the little bugger 'standard' yknow?
 
 But... I'd say that about the KV-2 also...
 (Should be replaced by SU122 and put into Reward Units)

 Advantages of your latest post is, can be done faster
 ... But will it still have sufficient 'flavor' to be a new faction?

[Aouch]

The problem with Pz 2 is that I couldn't find a way to represent it via reward-system. (If you've a suggestion, plz post it!)
I first thought about adding the Pz 3 to tank-HQ and put the Pz 2 instead in T2OFF, but then I realized that it's needed there to give the Ostheer an early advantage over all the other factions.
Now, this leads to your warrantable objection, if this Ostheer-proposal is unique enough, to justify having it alongside with the old Axis-factions.
I think, yes, it is. It offers endless possible strats how to play it (which can be a real pain for balance-tester, though  ).

For example, you want to focus on tank-combat. -> Go for T1 and instant T2OFF without spending time and resources at teching unit pools in T1! You can now crush the enemy with Pz 3s, while he in most cases he hasn't even a Stuart or T70. If you choose AGC-Doctrin, you've also access to the KwK 39 L/60 and kill the enemy light tanks even easier.  Sounds like a lot fun, doesn't it? 
But you've a problem: What to do against Shermans or T34s? Because of the unit-pools, you can't just easily built a PaK...
So what to do? Go back to T1 and tech "Men against Tanks" or build the tank-HQ for Pz 4?


You see, the Ostheer offers a great amount of tactics how the annihilate the enemy, but you've always remember their main disadvantage (which is on the other hand why they've such great strats): The unit-pools!

[Loupblanc]

 I like it a lot!
 - What do you mean can't find a way to represent it via
 Rewards-system? / I'm a fan of tactics, flavor and variety.
 But not OP 'early advantage over other factions' ? It'd kill
 USA no?

[Aouch]

What I meant with Reward-system: Which unit should be Pz2 replace? Pz3? No, read my previous post for further explanation. 

It'd kill USA no?

Exactly. Death to the USA!
...
 

Erm, actually you've a point here. It WILL kill USA.
However, putting it in tanks-HQ as a neutral unit as replacement for the Pz4 just wouldn't be right.

But this is nothing which can't be solved, for example via costs for building the Support-HQ and teching the offensive-unit-pool.
The main idea here is, that T1 (inf-HQ) will come at the same time as playing as WH. But T2 (support) of the Ostheer will come when WH-player normally has already T3.
WH's T4 is the same as tank- or arty-HQ of OH.
Therefore the OH-player has to chose to either have tanks or rely on artillery and StuGs. (It should be nearly impossible to have both at nearly the same time!) 

[Loupblanc]

 It's a timing issue. Darn thing being play balance.
 We'll really know once we begin the beta, but early
 tanks would really hurt USA.

 As for Reward Units... Ah, I don't know. I'm always for
 Reward Units, eh, as it's nice for campaigns, etc. As what
 should it replace, the Pz2 ? Well, Puma of course This
 sort of thing happens when there are 3x German factions,
 wouldn't you say?

[Aouch]

Yep. It's really only a matter of the right timing. But having T2Off (-> Pz3) at the time, when US has T3 seems OK to me. 
So they can counter them with their 57mm. Of course, their pesky M8 won't have a change against the Pz3, but that was my intention.
Same for Red Army: The Pz3 will crush their T70 and T90, but won't stand a change vs. T34 and also have a hard time struggling with tank-hunter-squads and ZiS-2.

As what should it replace, the Pz2 ? Well, Puma of course

Now I get what  you meant! Adding reward-units to the vCoH-factions could be really fun.   
However, the Pz2 wouldn't fit into OH. That's what I meant. 

[Loupblanc]

 - Hmmm, but it's a game-breaker :p USA - Early advantage.
 Germans having better early/middle advantage than USA =
 autowin ;p

 And 57 mm aren'T hard to run circles around
 Especially a unit with a turret!!!!
 - Well reward unit for OE. Since no modif of vanilla factions
 Right?

[ford_prefect]

- Hmmm, but it's a jawbreaker :p USA - Early advantage.
 Germans having better early/middle advantage than USA =
 autowin ;p

 And 57 mm aren't hard to run circles around
 Especially a unit with a turret!!!!
 - Well reward unit for OE. Since no modif of vanilla factions
 Right?

I think its the other way around Germany does best at the end of the match while America does somewhat better in the begening and mid

[Loupblanc]

 Yea but his ostheer has huge early/early-middle advantage
 And Soviets being even slower than Wehr in early game...
 It's an uber auto win

[ford_prefect]

 Yea but his ostheer has huge early/early-middle advantage
 And Soviets being even slower than Wehr in early game...
 It's an uber auto win

NO one here has played the Ostheer "they don't have anything for it well maybe one or two tanks" so no one knows what the Ostheer is

[Loupblanc]

 OstHeer is 'I press a button' right at the start and
 600 JagTigers rush in and crush the enemy right at the
 beginning

 I think a lot of people would want to play that
 ... As long as they play Germans.

[Aouch]

To make things clear:
Pz3 is T2Off.
T2 of the OH is the equivalent to T3 of US. Remember you've to pay for the offensive-unit-pool, too.
Furthermore, if you tech T2Off, you will not have PaKs or decent AI (-> FlaK)! 
So, of course, the Pz3 should be able to crush the M8 or  other light tanks, because the OH don't have another option, except p'fausts and molotovs, to destroy the enemy light/mid tanks of the enemy.
If you go T2Def instead, the OH don't have any vehicle at all except the support-truck, which only gives support and the RSO, which is an unarmed transporter, however, you'll have nice defensive AT and AI-capabilities. 

Therefore, I don't think the OH (why the heck you call it OE, that doesn't make any sence at all  ) is OP.
The US-player just can't simply use massive inf-blobs, he has to use real tactis to mess with the OH.

[Loupblanc]

 Oh, hey, if there are severe costs to doing something,
 that makes it a little better. See, ever pro has to be offset
 by cons. Yummy pro, severe cons

  I basically like your proposal. Just that any pure pro
 unit will automatically get a nay from me, see? (It's a chess
 game!).
 
 - I call it OE like I call WE and PE...
 OH is Oh Henry candy bar for me

[Aouch]

Most units of my proposal are "pro"-units.
If you look at them at the first time: PaK40 > PaK 38
Landser > Grenadier
Pz3 > Puma
Pz4 H > Pz 4 G
etc.

But the point is, they only seem to be like uber-units.
Panzers for example have decreased LOS, so you have to first get vet I (pzcmd), which can only be done via fighting and killing, side-schurzen are also vet, mg-upgrade for inf is vet etc etc.
So when playing vs the OH, you don't have to be afraid of suddenly being confronted with vet3 inf and vet 2 tanks. 
And of course, there're the unit-pools...


OE does makes sence in the line of OE and PE.
However, only PE (= Panzerelite) exists. The other should be OH (= Ostheer) and WH (= Wehrmacht Heer). 

[Loupblanc]

 Doesn't that encourage spamming, though?
 Like 20x Pz4/37AAFLakpanzers?