American Reward Unit Suggestion - Jeep w/ 37 mm M3

[JohnSchwartz]

The 37 mm M3 [nofollow] was an early anti-tank gun that was towable by a jeep. My thinking is that it could be used as a replacement for the stock jeep, trading a recon unit for an early half-track killer. Since PE don't have snipers or weapons teams to worry about, the regular jeep is sometimes of limited utility. There are two options, both of which were widely used by the Americans. Either a jeep could tow the gun (which might be more complicated to implement than worthwhile), or the gun could be mounted in the back of a light truck like the GMC M6 [nofollow]. In the M6, they were generally rear facing. Whether it's towed by a jeep or mounted in the back of a truck, it would be more mobile than infantry, but it would need time to set up before firing.

Stat wise, the 37 mm is the same gun that the Stuart uses, so it would be okay against infantry, deadly to light vehicles, and ineffective against heavy armor.

Does this unit step on any other units toes? I think it falls somewhere between the armored car and the anti-tank gun. I think the need to set up before firing would justify a lower price than the armored car (something like 220 MP, 10 Fuel), while the mobility and the lower penetrating HE round would distinguish the 37 from the 57 mm gun.

As far as other problems go, some might feel that the Americans can already counter early half-tracks with HMGs using AP rounds, or mortars, or sticky bombs/BARs. And these are all true, but I think there's room for a more effective counter before the Motor Pool is built, and not much reason to use jeeps against the Panzer Elite.

Anyways, thoughts?

[GodlikeDennis]

Jeeps are awful vs Snipers. They're actually already better vs PE for blocking vehicles and cover pushing.

[JohnSchwartz]

I don't understand why a jeep is awful versus a sniper. They have good sight range, and a special trait to see hidden snipers. They are almost impossible for a sniper to kill, they move faster than snipers, they do reasonable damage to them, and they cost considerably less to produce. The game even specifically tells you to build them against them. I don't know everything though, so if there's a reason why they're awful, I'm willing to listen.

I also don't understand why they'd be better against the PE. Blocking vehicles (to cause a traffic jam?) only works in narrow confines. Cover pushing, by which I assume you mean using the jeep for cover while infantry cross open ground, would work a lot better if jeeps had any armor to speak of. If I misunderstood these terms, I apologize. I did searches for both phrases and didn't come up with anything on these forums. Both of these tactics could be used about as well against the Wehr as the PE, with the added bonus of the Wehr having weapons teams and snipers to counter.

Jeeps cost the same as scout cars and appear on the map at roughly the same time. Scout cars are more heavily armored vehicles (although it's possible that the weapons tables give a bonus to jeeps vs. scout cars), and the PE player is probably going to want a few for later to secure his resources. If the jeep did prove decisive, the PE player could push out an armored car for only 55 more fuel. Armored cars crush jeeps and infantry alike.

Disclaimer: I've never thought to use a jeep against PE, except as a spotter for mortars and AT, since it seemed like a waste of MP. I am not claiming any special expertise. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just explaining my understanding, and looking for some clarification on what you said.

[EasyCalic]

Ahem, cover pushing means using the jeep to push the Pgrens out of cover.

[Dann88]

And it doesn't have to be in a narrow confine to block a vehicles, just block its path is enough.

[JohnSchwartz]

Ah okay, thank you.

[GodlikeDennis]

Jeeps are quite possibly one of the worst units in the game, with the only exception being an abuse of the infantry AI mechanics and forcing infantry out of cover. Since the others have already defined the terms I used, I'll explain why the Jeep is so bad.

The gun. The jeep has one of the worst weapons in the game and will even have difficulty fighting against flanked MG crews. The Jeep will often not even kill a retreating Sniper, despite being a supposed hard counter. Compare this to the bike, who is fast and armed with a much more effective weapon, which will almost always kill a retreating Sniper unless a mine or support units stops it. Jeeps are also hard countered much earlier by Paks from Wehr, while the bike is not necessarily countered by 57mms (dodges) and only needs to be risked for a shorter period of time due to increased firepower. BARs and Brens are very effective against it at close range but a good player will always stay away, or retreat if damaged. Compare this to the burst damage from Shreks, fausts, or a hidden Pak.

Now, we look at the PE matchup. Jeeps are much better vs PGs than volks. They are able to harass effectively and are almost OP in early game engagements for pushing PGs out of cover (who absolutely need to group in cover to be effective). The Jeep is better at harassing kettenkrads as well. With the armour doctrine, your jeep can also back cap which PE has a fair bit of trouble dealing with. Finally, it isn't truly hardcountered until much heavier vehicles like Marders or T4 vehicles come out. Until then, it can be useful to block the movement of an AC while rifles sticky for example.

So if we compare the two, Jeeps are more useful against PE because of their abilities innate to any other vehicle. Against wehr, they are essentially a waste of resources (although still fun to cap around with armour doc). BARed rifles are usually more effective vs Snipers, or of course a countersniper of your own with Airborne doc.

[JohnSchwartz]

That's crazy. I never even tried to use jeeps aggressively like that. They always seem to blow up as soon as anything breathes on them. It's strange that PE would have so much trouble killing them. I guess if you keep moving and just zip in and out it would work.

[Riggsman]

All my Jeeps which reached Vet2 even Vet3 lol were all vs PE, not Wehr. They live longer vs Pe more than vs WM because every single Wehrmacht unit makes damage to Jeep, even a flanked Mg42 crew if you are not far enough. PE has only PGs who mostly shoots at your Rifles or Engies, they can't chase it like a Bike and Ketten has to run if jeep is around so it prevents PE from capping. Until a HT or AC/SC hits the field you can do maximum damage with it. At the highest level, you often see Jeep from Top players because they "can" micro it very well but most of the US players prefer extra Rifle instead- simply because of damage output and vet on Rifle is so valuable that it's incomparable to vetted Jeep. For instance you never see a Jeep play from Legendary player Sepha cause he thinks it's a waste.

Bike is superior to Jeep imho that's why you see Bike-Mg openings from Wehrmacht most of the time. Me? I like Jeep, if my micro is hot on that single day, I get one, if I feel rusty I don't.

[Blackbishop]

Dunno, IMO it would be a better reward unit the armoured jeep:



Pros:
* More HP.
* More firepower.

Cons:
* Less speed.
* Less range of sight/detection.

[TheVole]

I would like this as the US only has one unique EF reward unit, which is less than all the others who have two or more.

[The Soldier]

If anything, make the Armored jeep have the same HP, but make it resilient to small-arms (rifles, SMGs, MGs w/o AP rounds, etc.).  If it does make it in. XD

[Blackbishop]

The Jeep is an early game unit, it cannot be impervious to bullets, let alone Germans don't have such thing as AP rounds in their small arms.

[TheVolskinator]

Give it M3 halftrack/bren armor. At least with the former you can focus fire the damn thing or hit it with a faust and finish it off with small arms fire. An MG42 and Volx shooting it would damage it enough to at least finish off with a faust. Bren armor would likely be more appropriate but I'm not sure how much of a step up from jeep armor it is. And Sdkfz_22X armor would run into target table issues methinks.

[GodlikeDennis]

I don't see how 22x armour would give issues, since you can change it freely for axis weapons without messing with any other balance. Anyway, I don't see why you would change armour type, just hp.