1.7xx Breakthrough Discussion

[Otto Halfhand]

The latest patch brings us another incarnation of The Soviet Armor Command Tree. The changes are refreshing.

• Mechanics are greatly improved The production rules are fascinating. It makes Fast Light Tankovy a very solid option and gives us a chance to switch resources sround a bit. How do Mechanics get vet and what does it do?
• Tank Riders has had a radical face lift. It would be nice if Mechanics riding tanks could repair while garrisoned and stationary. I do not understand why Guards may only opt for SMGs when this CT is chosen. Heavy Infantry with lots of Health should be able to choose SMGs regardless of Commander Tree chosen.
• The choice of callins as Heavy turreted tank or Tank Destroyer is nice on both sides of the trees.
• How does Inspired Speech work now? I'm certain there have been changes.
• How does the air strike work now. I know there are changes here as well.

Besides the SMG change the only thing that needs improvement are the various descriptions for the CT.

[GodlikeDennis]

Mechanics get vet by killing (good luck) and don't have any real bonuses. Just improvements to sight or detection and things like that. Guard PPSs would be completely gone if I hadn't thought that SVTs didn't really suit units riding tanks. Guards aren't intended to be solo destroyers of armies. They are meant to use utility, nades and tankiness to allow other troops to attack easier. Inspired speech had no changes and is really only useful on Snipers, to make them move normal speed while stealthed. The IL-2 had the strafe weakened vs infantry, since that is not its focus. Now, the carpet bomb is more reliable than the previous rocket run that often would not fire at all. It is VERY effective against groups of vehicles that don't move, covers a fairly wide area and is more reliable and accurate than bombing run. Price and damage we are tweaking.

[Otto Halfhand]

It sounds like more work needs done on vetting Mechanics. They only have pistols correct? How many weapons slots do they have? I suspect that pickup weapons is the only way to hope for vet. Sight and detection buffs are lame for this squad. what are the experience levels required for vet?

Here is an idea you probably will dislike. In the event of vet1 supervised costs go down by 5 additional MP, vet 2 reduces muni cost to 25, vet 3 decreases production time additional 0.1.  I don't think you can call it OP though. Its not bloody likely the mechanics will get much experience. 

[Blackbishop]

Mechanics, just like Luftwaffe Ground Forces, are troops that don't rely on vet because they are not offensive troops, so no one would expect you earn vet with those or the bonuses earned help you to improve them a lot.

So, Mechs are fine as it, combat-wise, because they are not intended to be useful in combat.

[Otto Halfhand]

I do not understand why so called non-offensive troops cannot engage in combat and get vet. This is unrealistic when rear areas get overrun. A lowly mechanic is surely able to fabricate and use a petrol bomb. Other supervisory squads have MP44s Sten guns  etc. Your example of LWGFs can pickup two shrecks (Wehr) and when they reach vet3 offensive will make short work of armored forces, (1.25x damage IIRC).

The forward observer is another squad that isn't supposed to engage in combat. Of course it gets sniper smoke only after it attains vet 3? I think this rather odd.

slightly OT: I was channeling my Father in Law "Dead" Eddie Slonaker, FO for the 230 FA/30th US "Old Hickory". His bronze star, two Purple Hearts, battlefield commission as well as his participation in the defeat of 5 panzer divisions at Mortain when the 230th was surrounded on August 7, 1944: would suggest that "so no one would expect you earn vet with those or the bonuses earned help you to improve them a lot". is not what I would expect at all.

[Pac-Fish]

I do not understand why so called non-offensive troops cannot engage in combat and get vet\

No one said you cant engage in combat or get vet. Its just really hard t do so. Have fun trying to get vet 3 mechanics

This is unrealistic when rear areas get overrun. A lowly mechanic is surely able to fabricate and use a petrol bomb.

If every units could fight efficiently what would be the need for real troops? Just like in team shooter games, each person has a special role . They are not all rounders. Might as well spam Sturmovie. Wait a second............

Other supervisory squads have MP44s Sten guns  etc.

Like? Got an example? Luft officer and Wehr officer both have pistols soooooooo

Your example of LWGFs can pickup two shrecks (Wehr) and when they reach vet3 offensive will make short work of armored forces, (1.25x damage IIRC).

Uhhh mechanics can pick up weapons too you know. They have 4 weapon slots, which means they can pick up like a shreck and a DP. And its not like LGF get vet 3 instantaneously. You act like its so easy. Do you realize how fragile they are? Weaker than volks IMO. And you realize a LGF is a PE unit and a Wehr shreck is a Wehr weapon. So now this brings in team game rules where everything is different.

The forward observer is another squad that isn't supposed to engage in combat. Of course it gets sniper smoke only after it attains vet 3? I think this rather odd.

So what is your point? Do you want it removed or something? Its just a freebie. If you get it, whoop. If not, oh well. Like vet 3 conscripts.

[GodlikeDennis]

I just want to point out that PE offensive vet doesn't give damage bonuses but gives accuracy, cooldown and penetration bonuses instead.

Even if we gave mechanics insane vet they would never gain it without picking up a weapon which we will not balance solely around. Instead, they are under the expectation they will NOT gain vet and it won't really matter to them anyway as a non-combat unit.

CPT also has a pistol Fishy.

[Pac-Fish]

CPT also has a pistol Fishy.

Oh yeah speaking of the Captain there is a Lt. too with a Sten . But thats currently an exception, not a norm.

[MonolithicBacon]

Just out of interest on this topic, does PE veterancy work differently in terms of attaining the rank, compared to other teams?

My Luftwaffe (usually just the one squad) will usually have rank three by the mid-point in the game, by being around Flaks, 88's and mortar halftracks, repairing them and "absorbing" their kills. Naturally it's far more useful to give them defensive veterancy so that they can continue to do this job, but later in game, they can prove to be rather effective stonewalls, soaking up damage while other units flank.

Is this method of veterancy applicable to other teams? Could mechanics gain veterancy by sitting behind a tank, repairing it, or as was said earlier, can they only gain vet through combat?

[Otto Halfhand]

@ Mono: I think in Opposing Fronts THQ tried two versions of vet, one for CW one for PE. Both revolved around mutual support and command radius. In PE's case I think they were trying to show the benefits of Kampfgruppe cooperation. I have found LWGTs to vet nicely as well. I would like to see Mechanics do repair when in garrison as Tank Riders, (in stationary mode is fine). If vet is not to be considered for certain classes of units I think an additional ability should be granted, (without vet requirements). Mine laying might be nice.

@GLD: It certainly makes sense to avoid balance issues with pick-up weapons. Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage? In which case PE Vet improves the chance of penetration and since all dropped shreks become Wehr shreks; which IIRC do greater damage then PE shreks? Is the Tank Riders ability done or do you'all have additional plans for it?

@ Pac-Fish: You are  correct about the MP44 thing.  My major concern with EF squad models is that they be well thought out and well designed. The Mechanics design shows a large improvement in 1.7. THe designer(s) are doing a good job. I would like to encourage them to greater heights. As a matter of fact for various reasons I would like to see a Soviet scout car and or A/C. The present CAP COST of 6 for FO is too high! It is higher then a T70 or T90 IIRC. If the FO cannot be improved to be worth its CAP it should be replaced. BTW I enjoy using Low End squads in different ways. Vetting them shows they have accomplished something.

[Blackbishop]

[...]

@GLD: It certainly makes sense to avoid balance issues with pick-up weapons. Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage? In which case PE Vet improves the chance of penetration and since all dropped shreks become Wehr shreks; which IIRC do greater damage then PE shreks? Is the Tank Riders ability done or do you'all have additional plans for it?

[...]

Since 2.602 PE dropped schrecks becomes PE dropped schrecks. The only difference is that when dropped, their slot size is reduced from 4 to 2.

[Pac-Fish]

Just out of interest on this topic, does PE veterancy work differently in terms of attaining the rank, compared to other teams?

Only PE gets the share vet thing. Brits all give their vet to one unit. They are like polar opposites. One gives vet to everyone, and everyone gives vet to one.

No unit can ever get vet from repair, not AFAIK

[GodlikeDennis]

PE gain vet by killing; same as other factions. The unit that actually kills gets full xp value, 2nd closest unit gets 0.5 that value, 3rd closest 0.25 etc.

[MonolithicBacon]

PE gain vet by killing; same as other factions. The unit that actually kills gets full xp value, 2nd closest unit gets 0.5 that value, 3rd closest 0.25 etc.

That's a really interesting design. I had always wondered why units stood near to Hummels ranked up like they were popping steroids.

[Otto Halfhand]

 I have noticed that sometimes during an Air Raid a Hurricane will make a Strafing Pass and Bombing Run and fail to fire or drop bombs even when beaucoup targets are in its path. This seems a little strange.

The KV1 has a feature that allows it to pass through Sovit Tank Traps one way only ... sometimes. Sometimes the KV1 passes through Soviet Tank Traps and crushes them. Is the a reason for this dualistic behaviour? I haven't checked myself, but Does SU85 have the same characteristics?