Soviet Infantry

[Kiwichris]

Been playing this mod sporadically for a while now. I just downloaded patch 1.7.0.2 and am really having trouble coming to grips with it. The soviet infantry die so easily it borders on ridiculousness, regardless of cover, support fire etc... I'm all for historical accuracy but games still have to be fair. The tanks are still balanced well and even the odds but the trouble is getting there. I often get killed before I can pump them out because i have no fuel because i can't hold points cause my infantry drop like flies! Am I missing something? Could anyone say what impacts the patch has had so I can come to grips with things and figure out what tactics work best now.

Sorry if i come across as venting, I do enjoy this mod and think it is really great! I'm also sorry if this is in the wrong place

[GodlikeDennis]

What infantry exactly are you talking about? Guards are very tough and Strelky are very similar to rifles in terms of survivability (same health, worse vet but get resistance to SMGs with RBS). Cons will always be weak for sure which is why their reinforce is dirt cheap. The worst value squad is the CS actually which has a very high reinforce cost but is essential to your gameplay of course. NI have decent survivability but their weapons output quite a lot of damage compared to Strelky or THs. Their smoke and molos are useful too. Partis are pretty good for early stealth assault troops. Popping out of buildings is very powerful when used behind an MG to make way for a charge.

[Kiwichris]

My bad, I wasn't very specific was I. Conscripts do, but they always have done, Strelzky seem less durable as do tank hunters and the AT teams take the honours. The other conclusion I was thinking about was that heaps of German stuff got buffed. Is that the case?

[EasyCalic]

That is not the case, since all vCoH factions have remained completely the same, with no change whatsoever. (Remember folks, redundancy helps drive the point home, remember it.)

Devs have stated several times already that, barring a reward unit or two, there is no change in balance regarding American, vBritish and both vGermans.

Perhaps you should look at the fights directly, cover, location and other stuff. Where all of your strelks in cover? Where they in cover at all? Or worse, where they in red cover? Maybe the Random Number God just hates you and every shot made against your infantry hits?

[Kiwichris]

...all vCoH factions have remained completely the same, with no change whatsoever.

From 1.7 Changelog:

Wehrmacht
* Tiger Ace health increased to 1500hp
* Fixed some penetration bugs with the Tiger Ace crack shot
* Set Pak38 penetration vs KV1 to match Churchill.
* Increased dmg of Panzerschrecks & PaK 38 against IS3 to 0.9.
* Increased penetration of Schreck against KV1 armor to match Churchill armor.
* Added the following changes to StuG IV gun:
 - Set penetration vs. T34/76 to 0.75.
 - Set penetration vs. T34/85 to 0.6375.
 - Set penetration vs. KV armor to 0.5804.
 - Set damage vs. KV armor to 1.2
 - Set damage vs. SU85 to 1.3
 - Set penetration vs. SU85 to 0.65
* Set penetration modifier of Panther gun vs. KV1 armor to 0.84675
* Set penetration modifier of Ostwind vs armor to:
 - KV1: 0.00075
 - T34/85: 0.00085
 - T34/76: 0.0009
* Switched penetration modifier of WH Panzer IV gun vs. KV1 and T34/85 armor
* Lowered LMG42 accuracy vs Sturmovie to 0.85
* Added HMG42 from the Community Model Project
* Normalized dmg from pak 38 vs SU85 cage armour
* Panzerfaust penetration vs SU85 cage armour set to 0.75
* Tiger gun penetration vs ISU-152 now matches Panther

Panzer Elite
* Increased dmg of Panzerschrecks against IS3 to 0.9
* Increased penetration of Schreck against KV1 armor to match Churchill armor
* Set penetration modifier of Panther gun vs. KV1 armor to 0.84675

Perhaps you should look at the fights directly, cover, location and other stuff. Where all of your strelks in cover? Where they in cover at all? Or worse, where they in red cover? Maybe the Random Number God just hates you and every shot made against your infantry hits?

I did state in my first post that cover etc... made little difference. But you could be right in sayng I just had atrocious luck!

Another thought, has the axis ai been modified to be smarter? Maybe that could also explain some things.

[krupp steel]

Yup , axis AI has trouble with even good players (even on hard)

[Otto Halfhand]

Point of Information here please. Will a Dev team or Balancer clarify whether vCoH factions remain unchanged totally or only against vCoh factions. Seems to me I read about buffs and nerfs to performance by most factions towards Sovs and vica versa. It doesn't bother me one way or another but if you can balance Sovs against wehr and Wehr against Sovs then you haven't changed the way vCoH faction operate against each other.

[Pac-Fish]

vCoH factions ..............  against vCoh factions.

This. Its probably much simpler to do this for various reasons

[krupp steel]

Mabye your conscripts just suck in general, you need to take advantage of their numbers and use those unarmed men in the squad as bait and damage soakers and just run up as close to VolksGrenadiers as possible and they will win the engagement as long as they have over atleast 5 men when they get close.  Other than that they just loose to everything from long or medium because conscripts have next to no training, and those unarmed soldiers are just their to be the damage soakers until you get extra rifles.

[GodlikeDennis]

Balance is not altered between vCoH factions. Of course their weapon target tables are modified vs Soviet target types which only affect that matchup. The only things that affect vCoH balance in any way that we change are the reward units.

[sandycaesar]

Conscripts are labelled "good as cannon fodder" for their Tent tooltip for a good reason; they die very, very quickly. So it's an excellent thing that you can reinforce a good five conscripts for two Volks killed (or even more with two Gren kills) in the mid-to-late game. They really shouldn't be primary troops once you have access to RBS and Guards, although I've found that it is generally worth upgrading them with full rifles when possible. (Unlike BARs for Riflemen, though, it's not generally worth teching to Weapon Reserves solely for the purpose of having five full-rifle Conscript squads rushing around the battlefield, hilarious though it might be.)

In terms of strategy, I figure it's much better to tech to T2 early on and get those RBSes out on the field as soon as you can. There might be a possibility of a T3 rush using lots and lots of full-rifle conscripts to hold the line, but in that case most of the upgrades in the Armory would be comparatively useless (since most Armory upgrades are for T2 and T2 related units), and as a result Conscripts remain costlier to reinforce. What's the expert opinion here?

[Otto Halfhand]

It is most certainly worthwhile to upgrade conscripts with weapons reserves. You get 5 squads cap free and with no reduction in MP increase rate. IIRC It adds an additional 10% to the MP upkeep reduction to the 10% reduction for the armory. That can amount to a lot of manpower over the course of the game.

[krupp steel]

I'm glad that the conscript upgrade is actually worthwhile now.  Before it was doctorinal and overpriced 50 munitions.  Now it's just 30 (10 munitions a rifle) plus extra accuracy so atleast then they can stand up to volks or MGs a lot better, though become more of a combat unit than a cannon fodder

[Drake22]

I'm glad that the conscript upgrade is actually worthwhile now.  Before it was doctorinal and overpriced 50 munitions.  Now it's just 30 (10 munitions a rifle) plus extra accuracy so atleast then they can stand up to volks or MGs a lot better, though become more of a combat unit than a cannon fodder

They still work best in the urban warfare doctrine though imo, For the Motherland! with a wall of conscripts in front of yours guards/tanks is always a sight to see. I call em soviet minesweepers myself. This upgrade just helps them contribute to the killing if they survive the charge, which is always nice.

[krupp steel]

But they still die like nothing but who cares?  There practically free to use, especially lategame where it only costs 8 mp to reinforce one guy.