[1.70.2] "Stand Your Ground" Strelky

[sandycaesar]

Hi,

I appreciate the change in the latest mod to give DP-28 equipped Strelky some suppression. However, the current implementation of their "Stand Your Ground" feature is quite broken. The 4x suppressive boost is comparable to the "Suppressive Fire" feature of American riflemen, being capable of stopping charging Axis infantry in their tracks, but it's completely free as opposed to costing 35 muni. That's in addition to the resistance to suppression, which alone is a powerful feature.

Depending on what you intend with it, I suggest either giving the feature a muni cost of around 35 (comparable to American riflemen), or toning down the added suppression by a lot. DP-28s are already more generally useful than PPShes, but now a Strelky unit can stand off charging Assault Grenadiers, suppress them, and rout them, all at no munitions cost. Not that I don't appreciate the firepower of the Degtyarev as a Soviet player, but I suspect our Axis comrades might have some objections to file. 

[Wekwekboris]

Assault Grens vs Strelky should be equal or more to the Assault Grens.

[krupp steel]

Didn't think of it until now, but your points do make sense and I agree.  And btw, riflemen suppressive fire is 40 MU I think.

[Otto Halfhand]

I don't think the RBS ability should have a Mt cost. I would rather see the suppressive effect reduced. Strelky have nowhere near the abilities that Amis Rifles have in aggregate.

[sandycaesar]

Yeah, I'd prefer not to see a muni cost for the ability either, which means that fairest thing to do is probably to dial down the added suppression. If it's cut in half, for instance, then it'd take two squads of Red Banner Strelky to suppress enemies instead of just one. Actual numbers and percentages would have to be determined in playtesting.

And, yes, 40MU. My mistake.

[GodlikeDennis]

The suppression is less than BARed rifles anyway so your point is moot. Thanks for using some critical thinking before posting though. Nice to see for a change.

[sandycaesar]

The base suppression of the RBS/DP-28, you mean? I have no problem with that. The thing is that with the 4x boost, they could still suppress a charging enemy squad pretty quickly: all right, maybe not as quick as BARs with Suppressive Fire, but plenty quick enough to completely destroy MP-44 wielding infantry. It's an extremely, extremely powerful ability to have for free, all the more so since dead Strelky require only 2/3 the cost of Riflemen to replace

EDIT: the fact that it's completely free also has another aspect, in that players can spam the ability en masse. You wouldn't normally see three Rifle squads all using Suppressive Fire at once because it'd be very expensive in terms of MUNI, but since the RBS ability doesn't cost anything, it's easy to group two or three Strelky squads and have them all start rallying around their flags at once. In practical terms it means no Axis infantry can get close without getting suppressed and killed for the duration of the firefight.

[BffWithDEATH]

but it takes a significant time to get rbs and you have to buy the lmg's

[GodlikeDennis]

In theoretical terms it means no Axis infantry can get close without getting suppressed and killed for the duration of the firefight.

Fixed that for you. In reality, BAR suppressive fire gives FAR greater suppression and actually gets a big boost for the second half of the ability as well. This allows one BAR squad to suppress multiple enemy squads with some micro. Compare this to the DP-28s, which must maintain their single target. DP-28s also have a muni price that BARs do not, remember, and they also come on a later tier unit that has weaker vet. You can't compare the two things 1:1. RBS also have the disadvantage of losing this ability if their leader dies. This makes blobbed use of it pretty improbable.

Suppressive fire has the downside of weakened accuracy (though increased rate of fire for more close range damage). Stand ground roots your squad with a movement decrease and leaves you very vulnerable to nades, which are a cheaper or free tech for Axis units, and also leaves them very vulnerable to an MP44 charge which they cannot escape from. In this case they are literally standing their ground or dying. They can be targeted easily by arty or vehicle crushing as well. It's still not too reliable to try and suppress upgraded PGs either, and PGs get sprint in very lategame to counter this ability easily anyway.

[sandycaesar]

All right, points taken. I'll be happily content with my RBS as they are, then.

[krupp steel]

I prefer PPSH-41 Red Banner Strelky anyways, they are more mobile have very good DPS (like SMG equipped Rangers) up close and have a cool reloading sound when they stop shooting.

[BffWithDEATH]

agreed, i actually find the lmg RBS difficult to use strategically. where as you can use smg RBS or Sturmovie to really lay down mass casualltys to the axis. which is allways usefull

[MonolithicBacon]

That said, who would come off better from DP armed Strelky against MG42 armed Grenadiers (only with one MG though, considering the munitions cost).

Granted, the Strelky have larger numbers and can stand ground, while Grenadiers have grenades to counter them... But in an open fight, which lays down more damage?

[Chancellor]

That said, who would come off better from DP armed Strelky against MG42 armed Grenadiers (only with one MG though, considering the munitions cost).

Granted, the Strelky have larger numbers and can stand ground, while Grenadiers have grenades to counter them... But in an open fight, which lays down more damage?

Considering no Potato Masher and no Stand Ground:

Vet 0 DP Strelky < Vet 0 LMG Gren

Vetted Strelky > Vet 0 LMG Gren

Vet 3 Strelky < Vet 3 LMG Gren

Damage-wise, the DPs do a bit more damage overall, while the LMG42 fares better close range.  If the whole squad is taken into consideration, DP Strelkies do more damage, but LMG Grens get Elite Armor with vet.

[MonolithicBacon]

Figured as much! Thanks Yauz!

So, does Strelky armour improve with Vet too?

And it's a good job that each set of infantry has their own abilities and additional weapons, otherwise we'd have plenty of close stalemates!