Save the Tigers!

[Major Hochstetter]

Save the Tigers!

Dear Eastern Front community, I’d like to draw your attention to an increasingly rare species that even seems to be threatened by extinction:
The Tiger.

As of today, the number of people concerned with this highly significant topic has decreased drastically. And while this may be due to the people just not paying attention to anything anymore, a much more compelling reason can be found in the Tigers rather unspectacular overall performance.
On the Battlefields everywhere between Moscow and the French coast, the numbers of Tigers have been dwindling. A few years ago, we saw hundreds, even thousands of them roaming the battlegrounds at the western and eastern fronts, but as of today, there are only a handful of them left, and whether they’ll survive the next years is questionable at best.
In order to give them a chance to maintain a viable population for the next century, I want to draw your attention to the threats the Tiger has to face and to master, and hope to gain your support in my quest to increase the Tigers viability, so that it may become the deadly force it used to be and crush its opposition once again.

These things threaten the Tiger:

-Russian big game hunters like the dreadful IS-2 and IS-3 are hunting and terrorizing the Tigers, usually overpowering them with superior strength and speed or even through sheer numbers.

-Some American companies care little for the environment, and especially the John Pershing Upgun Inc. has proven to be a huge threat to the Tigers very existence.

-British AT-stations constantly disturb and harass the Tiger in its natural territory.

Don’t let this beautiful and majestic species be extinguished!

Give the Tigers a future!

By now, you have probably realized that I am not talking about the big cat native to India, China, Siberia and Southeast Asia.



Instead, their ironclad counterparts are the focus of this thread:



So let’s get to the actual problem now: The Wehrmacht Tiger in the Blitzkrieg doctrine is currently outshined by most other “super-tanks” in the game. Let’s see some comparisons:

Tiger vs. Pershing
This old battle has been going for years now, ever since CoH has been released. And as of now, the Pershing has the upper hand in several aspects:
-Availability: Unlocking the Pershing costs 8 CP. Unlocking the Tiger costs 9.
-Speed: The Pershing starts out faster than the Tiger, and if I remember correctly, its speed is increased once again when it reaches Vet 1. This is, as everyone should know from the whole IS-3 debate, a huge advantage, as it allows the Pershing to retreat from an unwinnable battle much easier, control a larger zone of the map and evade artillery attacks more frequently.
-Combat Power: A Tiger beats a Pershing of the same level of veterancy, until said Pershing gets the upgun, that is. It will increase the Pershing’s penetration chance against the Tiger to a flat 100%, regardless the distance or level of veterancy, allowing the Pershing to destroy any Tiger tank with ease. Against infantry, their performance is roughly equal, and whatever disadvantage the Pershing may suffer due to the upgun is easily neutralized by the huge damage bonus it gets on veterancy level 3.
-Doctrine: The Tiger is, more or less, the final unlock in the Blitzkrieg doctrine. Blitzkrieg assault isn’t quite worth its ammu and Manpower Blitz is only useful if you’re floating insane amounts of resources. The American armor company has got two “final unlocks”, which is an advantage in longer games.

Tiger vs. IS-2
Well, the IS-2 may not be stronger than the Tiger, but it’s not doctrine-dependent, costs less manpower and can be spammed. Also, according to a chart provided by GodlikeDennis in another thread, its shots actually deal more damage than those of a tiger and it has more health. There are still armor and veterancy levels to give the Tiger an edge, but the IS-2 is still a unit that easily circumvents the ton of restrictions the Tiger suffers from… So it may be a little strong in comparison.

Tiger vs. IS-3
Well, can these units even be compared to each other? One is a decent, though super slow and offensively lacking front line fighter, while the other one is the same, but stronger, faster, bulkier and slightly earlier available. Sure, the IS-3 can be destroyed permanently, but the impact it has on the battlefield is just so much larger than anything the tiger could possibly hope for that it’s almost ridiculous. Also, the IS-3’s Breakthrough Assault strategy has a lot fewer useless or close-to-useless parts then Blitzkrieg, as the Sturmovik alone has a higher impact than the entire right side of the Blitzkrieg tree.

Tiger vs. King Tiger
Okay, the KT, like the IS-3, comes slightly earlier than the Blitz Tiger, but can be permanently shut down if you’re not careful enough. While it IS on the field, however, it easily outshines the tiger by being an incredibly tough and really strong tank – easily stronger than anything the allies might throw at it. Its zone control is heavily limited by its slow movement, but, as opposed to the Blitz Tiger, this monster can easily hold a VP with comparably little support, or spearhead the final assault on the enemy’s base. The point here is that the KTs incredible strength allows it to do things no Blitz player could even think of achieving with his Tiger… Just as the IS-3 has incredible potential due to its speed. These two are, essentially, super-high-impact-units; they can change the game in the very moment of their appearance on the battlefield. The Blitz Tiger shares all their disadvantages until it dies, but it doesn’t really do anything to make up for them. The only advantage it has over them is its expendability, and we all know that this doesn’t go anywhere near making up for its almost complete lack of impact on the battlefield.

Tiger vs. Jagdpanther
Well, what is there to add? The JP shares the KTs and IS-3s place as a super-high-impact-unit, and is so much stronger than the Tiger that any comparison couldn’t even be taken seriously. Especially after getting a few levels of defensive vet, the JP becomes almost indestructible and super-fast while still dealing much more damage than the Blitz Tiger.

Tiger vs. Tiger Ace
Once again, we get the replaceable Tiger versus a one-time-call-in, which is a Tiger… with a turbo engine and a sniper shot ability, while the only actual disadvantage kicks in when the unit gets destroyed. This, however, probably won’t happen if you play it safe, as the Ace’s insane speed makes it hard to pin down and destroy.

So to sum it up, ALL the other super-tanks in the game are better than the Tiger in several ways. The only ones that aren’t definitively stronger than it are the Pershing and the IS-2, and these are either earlier or more frequently available and have way superior zone control, while each of the other ones is strong enough to turn the tide of a battle on their own. Sure, these are limited by their irreplaceability, but the greatest strength of a final unlock shouldn’t be useless before the unit is destroyed, which, sadly, is the case right now.
So, how to resolve these issues? There are several options for this, but the easiest and fairest one is probably to buff the Tiger’s damage output to increase its overall impact and especially its capability of fighting other tanks – it should easily and somewhat quickly beat a non-upgun Pershing or an IS-2, while also not helplessly awaiting its inevitable destruction when chased by an upgunned Pershing.
To achieve this, I recommend the following buffs:
- Decrease the refire delay of the Blitz Tigers main gun to 7 seconds (from 8, as far as I know)
- Slightly increase the penetration of the Blitz Tigers main gun against the IS-2 and the Pershing, maybe also against the IS-3.

These Buffs will give the Tiger much better matchups against its direct competitors, while also increasing its impact on the overall situation without making it overpowered in comparison to the super-high-impact-tanks. Numbers are, obviously, nothing finite and can be tweaked by the balance team, and the type of buff is only a suggestion, too. A slight speed increase or a buff to the main guns damage would probably help just as well. Anyway, something has to be done to keep the Tiger from falling into insignificance.

I hope you can see my point and agree on that the Tiger needs a buff to regain its status as a decisive and maybe even game-winning unit, and in this spirit, I’ll just say it once again:

Save the Tigers!

[Zerstörer]

Awww cutie wee tiger baby no longer easy squishy squishy all bad menz tankz.....awww.....

IS2 is spamable but we'll forget the Panther and the bought vet for tanks, which you get no matter how many and deftly you loose...you don't know how the panther vs Pershing fights go I take it...I gave up on logic some time ago, look forward to some more ''adjustments'' to save the big cats

[Blackbishop]

It is obvious than the Axis "Super Tanks" are better than Tiger because you can call them just once, so they better should worth it.

We are not going to change anything regarding CoH balance because that's what Relic decided to implement, but we can tweak IS2 and IS3 vs Tiger because it concerns EF balance... but that's up to balancers.

[Pac-Fish]

Well I dont think an IS-2 can beat a Tiger but if statistically they can then I guess that's something that should be looked at. And also I wouldnt really know cause most of the time, ppl have at least vet1 when the Tiger arrives which is a game changing factor.

[JB23]

+1 for effort

[Cranialwizard]

To give a balancer position on it, the IS-3 has received some pretty significant nerfs against the Tiger (But is still strong) and the ISU has received some buffs VS tanks, but can really only win a standoff with a turreted tank with ample support.

Of course the Tiger Ace, King Tiger, and Jagpanther/Jagtiger are stronger than the Tiger. They're 1 time call-ins. The King Tiger offers no other units to support it, so it has to be strong, only offers some off-map options and an active + passive ability.

Sounds like you aren't using Tigers to their fullest extent anyway.

Tigers are fine now, only VS IS-2s do they need a little fine-tuning.

[GodlikeDennis]

A for effort but I don't agree with your post.

Tiger I is incomparable to the 1 time tanks.

vs Pershing:
The upgun actually has a 2% chance not to penetrate at long range (huge I know ). The Tiger has very strong vet which heavily swings the battle in its favour. Vet1 and 2 are super important for Tiger vs Pershing battles, and vet3 will also help dramatically unless the Pershing is also allowed to gain Vet2. Vet1/2 will not help the Pershing against a Tiger.

Most of the time, these battles end in the Pershing retreating because it is losing. The Pershing can win if it stays at long range and the Tiger will win if at close range or has vet. This is pretty fair. The Tiger can also use Blitz to move the odds in his favour considerably.

vs IS-2
The IS-2 shoots really slowly and has quite poor accuracy. A Tiger could quite easily beat an IS-2 if the IS-2 didn't have oddly strong modifiers vs the Tiger. This was already fixed several months ago in the internal version, while at the same time the IS-2 was buffed against the KT. The Tiger also gets substantial vet bonuses whereas the IS-2 has a harder time gaining vet.

About BT doc
We are in the process of reshuffling BT doc because the RHS is too accessible while at the same time totally MP callins. This doctrine will be closer to Armour doc from US when we are done (no Calliopes/Kats though). It will have much more synergy with T3/4 strats and much less with T2 strats because some callins are being removed and abilities altered to give benefits to Tank Hall units.

[Otto Halfhand]

To give the Compstompers POV: I put full faith and credit in the Balance crew to adjust the Tiger performance to Par stanadard with other Heavy tanks.
The Devs have promised us a producible Tiger in Ostheer. Still doctrinal but ....
I want to be able to use and evaluate two Tigers on the field at once. I would also like to see Tigers available non-doctrinally.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

The Tiger I is a meatshield unit. It's designed to soak up damage while also dishing out quite a lot, especially against infantry. 1 shot 4 riflemen dead? No problem, Tiger 88mm does that easily.
Especially compared to King Tiger and Jagdpanther the Tiger I creates such a huge manpower drain for the enemy that it's very costly to attack the Tiger without having appropriate heavy armour support. If you support the Tiger with Panzerschrecks, paks and/or Panthers there shouldn't be much that your enemy can do about it.

Also, like Dennis said, you absolutely NEED veterancy on the Tiger. A vet 0 Tiger is weak, but a vet 3 Tiger is a beast.

[Major Hochstetter]

Before I begin, thanks for all the helpful replies, it's good to see that most of you are taking my concerns seriously ^^
(I was worried at first -.-)

It is obvious than the Axis "Super Tanks" are better than Tiger because you can call them just once, so they better should worth it.

We are not going to change anything regarding CoH balance because that's what Relic decided to implement, but we can tweak IS2 and IS3 vs Tiger because it concerns EF balance... but that's up to balancers.

You have a good point here, but I do not really think that their status as one-time call-ins should give the other tanks that much of an advantage over the Tiger. The point here is that their disadvantage will only kick in if they are destroyed, and while the loss of one IS-3 or KT will almost certainly cause you to lose the game, a lost Tiger will have a quite similar effect... Recovering from such a loss is rarely possible, as even though you can instantly replace the Tiger, you'll still have lost 800 MP and (probably) a major battle, which is usually nothing you can make up for with another Tiger... The relatively low power of the Tiger while it is on the field just doesn't seem to be totally justified by the fact that you're allowed to lose it.

Well I dont think an IS-2 can beat a Tiger but if statistically they can then I guess that's something that should be looked at. And also I wouldnt really know cause most of the time, ppl have at least vet1 when the Tiger arrives which is a game changing factor.

I didn't want to imply that a Tiger loses to an IS-2, it doesn't, sorry for not being clear enough about that. Also, I agree on the whole veterancy argument - it augments the tigers expendability in an effective way, and makes it somewhat useful as a damage sponge, but it isn't really great at that either, and, most importantly, it can't really do anything else, whereas the KT absolutely excels at said sponge job, the IS-3 has the mobility and firepower to control a large area on the map, and the Ace is so fast that it can really mess with most opponents flanking strategies - and the latter two can still be damage sponges if they need to be. So, straight 1v1 strength isn't the only thing the Tiger is lacking, it's more about general utility and it's impact on the battlefield (yeah, I know i keep on rambling about that...).

+1 for effort

Thanks 

To give a balancer position on it, the IS-3 has received some pretty significant nerfs against the Tiger (But is still strong) and the ISU has received some buffs VS tanks, but can really only win a standoff with a turreted tank with ample support.

Of course the Tiger Ace, King Tiger, and Jagpanther/Jagtiger are stronger than the Tiger. They're 1 time call-ins. The King Tiger offers no other units to support it, so it has to be strong, only offers some off-map options and an active + passive ability.

That's quite interesting to hear, though the IS-3 still trashes the Tiger no matter what. Which is fine, if only a living IS-3 had any disadvantage, or any area where it isn't better in comparison to a living Tiger. It currently takes more damage than a Tiger, deals more damage than a Tiger and moves faster than a Tiger (which is a considerable boost to both zone control and survivability). Sure, a dead Tiger beats a dead IS-3, but the Tiger is, for obvious reasons, much, much easier to destroy. The same goes for the Ace, and to a lesser extent for the JP and KT, though these do have some slight disadvantages: The KT is even slower and the JP has no turret. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not raging about the Ace and IS-3, I believe that the EF team did a great job both designing and balancing these units. It's just that I feel like the Tiger can't really keep up with them anymore, and it's replaceability doesn't seem like a sufficiently lager advantage to make up for it.

Sounds like you aren't using Tigers to their fullest extent anyway.

While this may be true, you'll have to agree that the Tiger doesn't really offer too many options to a player, especially not in comparison to its more mobile counterparts. Also, from what I've seen in most of the replays of the pros around here, I've never seen the Tiger make too much of a difference. The KT is an impenetrable wall. The IS-3 can do pretty much everything. And a well-played Tiger Ace is among the most game-changing units I've seen so far. The Tiger however? It tries to be all of that, but it just doesn't seem good enough to actually accomplish much.

A for effort but I don't agree with your post.

Tiger I is incomparable to the 1 time tanks.

vs Pershing:
The upgun actually has a 2% chance not to penetrate at long range (huge I know ). The Tiger has very strong vet which heavily swings the battle in its favour. Vet1 and 2 are super important for Tiger vs Pershing battles, and vet3 will also help dramatically unless the Pershing is also allowed to gain Vet2. Vet1/2 will not help the Pershing against a Tiger.

Most of the time, these battles end in the Pershing retreating because it is losing. The Pershing can win if it stays at long range and the Tiger will win if at close range or has vet. This is pretty fair. The Tiger can also use Blitz to move the odds in his favour considerably.

I agree about the direct match-up being fair, but the Pershing still offers way superior zone control. The two units are roughly equal in direct combat power, but both utility and survivability of the Pershing are better due to its speed.

About BT doc
We are in the process of reshuffling BT doc because the RHS is too accessible while at the same time totally MP callins. This doctrine will be closer to Armour doc from US when we are done (no Calliopes/Kats though). It will have much more synergy with T3/4 strats and much less with T2 strats because some callins are being removed and abilities altered to give benefits to Tank Hall units.

That's good to hear, especially when linked to Cranialwizard's argument about the KT deserving it's strength due to a lack of supportive doctrinal call-ins, which the IS-3 obviously doesn't suffer from. Looking forward to it 

The Tiger I is a meatshield unit. It's designed to soak up damage while also dishing out quite a lot, especially against infantry. 1 shot 4 riflemen dead? No problem, Tiger 88mm does that easily.
Especially compared to King Tiger and Jagdpanther the Tiger I creates such a huge manpower drain for the enemy that it's very costly to attack the Tiger without having appropriate heavy armour support. If you support the Tiger with Panzerschrecks, paks and/or Panthers there shouldn't be much that your enemy can do about it.

Also, like Dennis said, you absolutely NEED veterancy on the Tiger. A vet 0 Tiger is weak, but a vet 3 Tiger is a beast.

I have to admit, I didn't consider the Tiger's anti-infantry capabilities to be too much of a large advantage, I'll have to think about that once more. My point about other units doing exactly the same and more things still stands, however - Both the Ace and the IS-3 have got the same anti-infantry power, and a vet 3 Pershing may even surpass them (without upgun, so it's not much of an argument, but w/e). Also, the Ace isn't a designated meatshield - it can however easily become one if it needs to be, and still go back to striking the enemy where it hurts and quickly retreating in a moments notice.


So well, I hope I made my point clear, you're arguments certainly gave me a much better view of the situation. I still believe that the Tiger needs a slight buff to make up for it's utter lack of utility and zone control in comparison to its counterparts, but it doesn't seem quite as bad to me anymore.
Thanks again for all the helpful and well-argumented replies, and I hope you'll reconsider your opinions.

With best regards, Major Hochstetter

[EasyCalic]

I'mma say something guys... this is now feeling like a 'gentleman trolling' thread for one single reason... Why the heck is this guy hell vent in comparing 1-time call-ins like the IS-3 Ace and KTiger with a Blitz Tiger?

A BTiger's a BTiger's a BTiger, and by virtue of being in the Blitz doctrine, you get a handful more than just the cat to deal with stuff, storms, StuHs (and other armored support) and Blitzkrieg are the BlitzTiger's best friends. Try to take those in account as well.

Other big call-ins have to shine on their own that's why they own, whereas the BTiger is part of a well-oiled warmachine that needs to work together with it's different parts or nothing really comes out of it.

[Otto Halfhand]

Hear, Hear, EasyCalic.

[Cranialwizard]

You absolutely need veterancy for your Tiger for it to be a King-like tank. Blitzkrieg also significantly strengthens your tanks/infantry.

Vet 3 Tiger + Blitz will/comes close to killing an IS3 in 1.6

[Pac-Fish]

AFAIK Biltz doesnt make your tank technically stronger. It makes it faster and fire faster BUT more inaccurate. It doesn't give it buffs like increased dmg or increased health. It does as it's namesake implies. Blitz.

Same applies to infantry. I think

[Cranialwizard]

AFAIK Biltz doesnt make your tank technically stronger. It makes it faster and fire faster BUT more inaccurate. It doesn't give it buffs like increased dmg or increased health. It does as it's namesake implies. Blitz.

Same applies to infantry. I think

A buff is a buff. If the Tiger fires faster, that means it shoots more rounds at another tank in a slug fest, or crushes infantry better when speeding, or easier to circle things like the ISU-152 or better to get to the rear of heavy armor.

A Tiger on Blitz is a Tiger on Steroids.

Time for Corsix Crunch:
Tiger Reload = 6 Seconds
6 x .75 = 4.5 seconds to reload
Tiger Max Speed = 4
4 x 1.5 = 6
Tiger Basic Accuracy =
L: .75
M: 1
S: 1
x .75

L: .5625
M: .75
S: .75

Moving Accuracy = .5

The only real bane of the Tiger on Blitz is while it's moving, where it already has a hap-hazard reload time anyway.


Infantry run faster, reload faster (and thus shoot more often), and receive 1/2 suppression.