Soviet is Overpowered

[Cranialwizard]

Simply slapping on 100 extra mp or so isnt going to fix the problem efficiently. The unit itself is still OP. You just had to pay slightly more. And mp is vital yes but an extra 100-200 can be gained in a single minute. Not a huge deterrent. Its not like ppl will be like "OMG IS-3 now cost 600 mp (or 6 CP)?!?! No way Im getting this anymore! So UP"

IS-3 cost the same as the KT. You're introduced a MP Drain AFAIK.

Essentially, both cost 500 manpower up-front but take about 500 manpower total from your income for 5 minutes. So in essence the unit basically cost 1000 manpower long term.

[Pac-Fish]

I thought it was 3 min not 5. But I forgot the mp drain. So u would basically go from losing 1000mp to like 1100mp

[Otto Halfhand]

You are both on the right track here. A five minute delay to acquire some resource is significant. The VP timer can run down in five minutes. Game over. You both set store in replays. Do you look at the total elapsed gameplay time? Do you predicate your teching strategies on how long an average game lasts? Or how long  a game lasts when you play with a particular faction or against a particular opponent?

Here are some thinking or talking points worth considering when time is the critical resource. They are relative minimums reflecting my compstomper proclivities but you can extend them as required based upon the savvy of your opponent. 1v1 play, we are talking 50-70 percent map control here. Soviets, Wehr  and PE can implement The equivalent of Lt_Tankovy production in 7-9 minutes. IE you can produce one tank per minute after this time. heavy tank production takes about 14 minutes to implement after which you can produce one H Tank every 90s to 2 min. 2 KV85 can be available in ~18 minutes and take down the enemy base in 21-22 minutes. It takes 20 minutes to rush a panther bg. In this model game length is 22 to 24 minutes average VP ticker=0. In each case listed Lt tanks to heavy tanks to BG callin the time frame is ~4-5 minutes. So increasing the cost of an "OP Class" callin by 500mp is roughly the eguivalent to raising the tier level of your armor squads by one. You have equated this to 500mp=5 minutes. That seems about right. If i can win the game in the 5 minutes it takes you to get an "OP class" squad the OP status doesn't matter and the game is ~balanced. @ Cranial consider the concept more than the numbers please.

[Pac-Fish]

@ Cranial consider the concept more than the numbers please.

I dont think he wants to be part of this conversation(and for good reason). He just wanted to throw in a quick fact.

1v1 play, we are talking 50-70 percent map control here. Soviets, Wehr  and PE can implement The equivalent of Lt_Tankovy production in 7-9 minutes.

As Wehr in a PvP you generally dont have much map control early game. You focus on one spot. Your map control (as I was told) is generally 30% give or take. Later on you gain more of the map.

IE you can produce one tank per minute after this time.

I dont know how or what u play but I dont think a tank comes out every minute. You must be floating ALOT of fuel and mp.

20min to a panther bg seems iffy. Some ppl say they you can get it in 10 but its only if they are dominating.

So increasing the cost of an "OP Class" callin by 500mp is roughly the eguivalent to raising the tier level of your armor squads by one. You have equated this to 500mp=5 minutes. That seems about right. If i can win the game in the 5 minutes it takes you to get an "OP class" squad the OP status doesn't matter and the game is ~balanced.

Who says you are increasing the call in by 500mp? We just noted that the mp drain equals 500 not that we were tacking on another 500 mp. You feel the mp AFTER getting the call in, not b4 u get it. SO yeah, you lose 500 mp over the course of 5 min but you already would have ur OP unit

This is not balanced at all anywho. To say its ok if its OP as long as its late game is just weird. Anyone can end a game mid game. But between to decent and equal players it'll generally go to late game. And then suddenly OP units come out on one side and its your fault b/c you should have ended it quicker? A unit that is OP is OP. Forget time.

[Otto Halfhand]

Fish if the cost of a callin is increased from 500 to 1000 the 5 minutes it takes to get the additional resource is before the fact. capiche? That is the "balance tool" part of the equation.

In pvp amonst relative equals I would think the range of map control should be 50-50 plus or minus 10; in other words 40-60 % When you speak of 30%I presume you are talking about setting up a minimum viable economic base. I this regard consider this:  Sovs:35 FL/min = goodfuel economy. 40FL/min = strongfuel economy 50 fl/min= strongerfuel economy.  at good to strong fuel economy you can build one T70 (270/35) or SU76(320/50) per minute avg. If you have a strong or stronger fuel economy you can build one T34(380/80) or one KV85 (500/90) every 90-120 seconds. the fuel economy levels vary a liitle from faction to faction but you can figure them out pretty easily.

Regarding the time frame for Panther BG call-in IIRC 235Fuel are required with no other fuel expenditure. ~ 25FL/min =avg fuel economy 2 mins for 1000mp ~12min. I've done it maybe once in 15 minutes. Normally you have distractions that keep you from focussing on the BG priority. 18 minutes @ 25FL/min gives you increased squads 2ACs, mortarHT,HT + . BG research is reasonable in the time frame.

[Pac-Fish]

When I said 30% I meant in an average game. Allies have an early advantage. Axis have a late advatage. Maybe its different with comp games but this is generally how it works.

Fish if the cost of a callin is increased from 500 to 1000 the 5 minutes it takes to get the additional resource is before the fact. capiche? That is the "balance tool" part of the equation.

Im not really understand the point you are trying to make here. Lets say you have exactly 500 mp. You've just unlocked a Is-3/KT. You can still call in that IS-3/KT. However once u call it in your mp income decreases. So lets say it was 270 b4. Now its 170. So really what point are u trying to make here? You can still get an OP unit for 500mp. You technically dont lose mp. You just recieve less than you would have if you didnt call in anything in the first place. So you will have less mp yeah but you still have that unit. Im not sure YOU get how a call in works.

[Otto Halfhand]

The point I'm trying to make is that if you have a squad is too strong you can delay it s arrival in time. Not as a player per se but as a balancer. By changing the up front cost of a call-in unit you can delay its arrival in time in game. In the case of the IS3. The balancing team determines the IS3 is OP. Nerf it. OK you can change the stats. but you could increase the cost to callin the unit to say 1000 mp which we are suggesting would delay its arrival by 5 minutes During this time you have built an 88 or two and now the IS3 is not so OP. Another way to adjust a percieved IMBA is to adjust the CP points for the unit. If it is determined that the NI is imba, not OP but imba you could change its CP cost from 2 to three. This is a more significant nerf than it first appearsbecause 1-2 CP cost 60 exp each. 3 or more CP cost 80CP each. by changing the cp cost from 2-3 you have delayed its earliest arrival in the game from  4 dimensionless time units to 7 dimensionless time units.
(equate 1 dimensionless time unit to 20 exp). In other words say a dimensionless time unit equates to 1 min. At 2cp it takes 4 minutes into the game before NI are available. If the devs choose rather than nerf stats they could delay the entrance of NI in game two ways. first put a 1CP CT_ability before NI at 2CP. this would delay the arrival of unit in game by 50%(180 exp, 6 dim. time units. Or they could simply increase it to 3 cp out right. This would mean it would take 200exp or 7 dim. time units before the NI is available in game. IE 75% delay to arrival.  The technique I have just described is a "leveraged balancing tool"

Yet a third way to balance a squad involves time delay again. In this case consider STORMOVIE upgrade.  Ings are a Tier 0 squad, THey require the armory and Body Armor upg to upgrade to Stormovie. at which point they become a Tier 1 squad. This equates them to conscripts, Com Squad  or THs. Strelky are actually Tier2 because they require Two Tier1 Spawner HQs to build. If we think Stormovie are OP we could add a prerequistate that T1 or T2  be built Making the a Tier 2 squad like strelky. if they are still op at that point make the prerequisite  T1 and T2 or just t3, at which point they become a tier3 Squad like Guards.

To tie this back to the thread at hand. When the Fuhrer says OP remove it. That is not necssarily the proper thing to do even if his statement is correct. The offending squads could be balanced  by changing When the offending squad comes into game not removing it.

[Dann88]

My god, Otto write your posts shorter please. They're long and confusing.

[Otto Halfhand]

OK Dann.I'll try.

[Pac-Fish]

Ok so you want to make the call in 1000mp and you believe that this increase will take an add. 5 min.

Well first off 1000 for a single call in is weird. One time call ins are always 500mp. Thats just how COH works. I guess it can change but still looks werid

Second you wouldnt know when the IS-3 is coming so you wouldnt say to yourself "OMG I THINK AN IS-3 IS COMING! LET ME JUST SPAM PAKS AND 88s AND HOPE FOR THE BEST". You can GUESS when its coming but generally (maybe this is just me) your too busy to think about if its coming. You know it'll come EVENTUALLY.

Third it wouldnt be an add. 5 min. More like 2 min. You are saying that in order to get the extra 500mp you need an add 5 min. This is not true. Prior to getting the call in your mp income is still the same. So back to our example lets say you just unlocked an IS-3 and you had 500mp and your mp income was 270. You will make 270 a min. Therefore in 2 min you make 540. So in just 2 add. min you could get the OP unit. And its STILL OP, you just had to wait two min. AND you dont get a mp drain by your plan so right after you buy your OP unit you can just get more stuff quicker. You just need to pay the upkeep price but everyone has to deal with that.

Otto when we said you lose 500 mp in 5 min we were referring to the fact that whenever you call in a one timer, your mp income will literally drop 100 mp for 5 min. So in 5 min you essentially lose 500mp. However you still get mp after your call in. Just not as much as b4.

As for the CP cost it really doesnt take much to get another CP and by simply tacking on one extra CP you STILL get an OP unit; you just had to wait a bit. The fact remains its still OP and you can still spam it once u unlock it.

Furher says its OP. Okay lets change the stats rather than the cost. The cost is basically a quick fix so ppl dont have to spend the time changing stats but it doesnt work efficiently.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Can you please change/remove the following soviet units or buildings?
IS-2 will be replaced with KV-85 not as a reward unit
IS-3 will be replaced with IS-2 not as a reward unit
Remove the Artillery Fire Base
Make the T-34/85 replace the T-34/76
T-70 and T-90 will be replace with an Armored Car with a upgradable main gun and not as a reward unit
Remove the SU-76
Outpost will be replace with Observation Post
Remove the Extra Damage in ZIS-2's Dig In ability
Remove the Precision Artillery Ability in Sharpshooter but not in Sniper Ace
KV-2 will be replaced with SU-122 not as a reward unit
Remove the Ballistics Veteran Upgrade
Remove the Gunnery Veteran Upgrade but Dig In can be used without the upgrade
Remove the Assault Gear Upgrade
Remove the DP-28 LMG in Shock Guard Upgrade

thank you.

Ok, looks like we didn't notice these imbalances during over 9000 games 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3. Will be fixed ASAP. Thx