The Propaganda Ministry Calls for Replays

[neosdark]

You could always replace the IS-2 with a IS-1 (IS-85) which is the armor of the IS-2 and and the 85mm gun of the T-34/85 as well as move the IS-2 into the IS-3 slot. Then again you could just get rid of the IS-3 as its a reward for the ISU-152.

I'm fairly sure the IS-1 served in a limited amount, with a similar role as the KV-85.

But honestly I think the IS-3 just needs a slight nerf and that's really it.

[Killar]

EDIT: Speaking of the placement in the mod, that is. I don't think much major design will be changed with soviets. Stat wise, I have a couple things I'd like to change on the IS3.

But honestly I think the IS-3 just needs a slight nerf and that's really it.

Already done:
- rear armor penetration of IS3 for all at weapons is now on IS2 level
- reduced damage of schreck and pak vs IS3 is now on IS2 level

Meaning that IS3 will be as strong as it was at the front (sloped and thicker armor should stay) but weaker at the rear and AT weapons will deal normal damage. Double schreck grens will be a thread for the IS3 now. What made the IS3 op was that no weapon could deal with it.

Just read something about the IS1. Its actually a 85mm turret on a IS chassis, which is actually very similar to a KV85 soviets have already (concept of putting a 85mm gun onto a heavy tank).

If something will be changed then IS2 replace IS3 and KV tanks will stay as rewards. This makes the most sense to me.

[neosdark]

But what will replace the IS-2 in that case?

[Killar]

Nothing. The 85mm gun is already designed to fight Panther and Tiger.

[neosdark]

Hrmm, that seems like it may create some back-lash.

[Chancellor]

The IS-3 nerfs look good.  The problem with the IS-3 before was that shrecks were not a threat at all.  The IS-3 gun could rip apart Grens and PGs while their shrecks would do minimal damage to it.  If I had one more suggestion, I would suggest the Wehrmacht Panthers get a slight buff versus the IS-3 too.  At the moment they have a very hard time penetrating the IS-3 for what they cost (600 manpower 110 fuel).  The IS-3's resilience to the Panther gun could then be buffed back to its current state with each level of vet.

I would not like to have the IS-2 replaced with the IS-3 because I think Soviets need buildable IS-2s to deal with Panthers.  They had a lot of IS-2s historically anyways, so it makes no sense they should be limited to 1.  However, I wouldn't mind if a "IS-2 Ace" replaced the IS-3 for historical accuracy (stats could be the same), as I suggested a long time ago when the IS-3 first came out.

[Imperial Dane]

Or you could just buff the damage of the T34-85 vs the Panther a bit more. The gun was in terms of damage more powerful than a panther. But it had lesser penetration due to a lack of velocity.

I mean all those changes could initially cause some problems, but on the other hand. Will they ever get better if they can just rely on the IS-crutch ? Because to a larger extent. It seems like that when people just ignore every tank in the tank hall and go straight for the IS-2.

And of course the meta-game always changes a bit.. But it seems to have gotten stuck on the IS tanks. Simply because that amount of power is considerably easier to get your hands on in comparison with other heavy armour.

[GodlikeDennis]

IS-2s actually have fairly high tech costs and aren't very cost efficient compared to T-34/85s. The overuse of IS-2s is more due to their survivability against Paks and Shreks than their performance vs Panthers. T-34/85s are very cost efficient against these but go down quite quickly against Paks and Shreks. It might be more worthwhile to nerf the IS-2 vs Paks and Shreks but it is actually supposed to be a breakthrough tank rather than a tank hunter and it fits its role quite well at the moment.

Generally, T-34/85s are a better tech if you have gone T2, because you get a tank hunter and may use support weapons to clear paks/grens etc. IS-2 is a better tech if you rushed T3 because you already have one of the two expensive tank hall upgrades and will need something that is resistant to Paks.

[Killar]

The IS-3 nerfs look good.  The problem with the IS-3 before was that shrecks were not a threat at all.  The IS-3 gun could rip apart Grens and PGs while their shrecks would do minimal damage to it.  If I had one more suggestion, I would suggest the Wehrmacht Panthers get a slight buff versus the IS-3 too.  At the moment they have a very hard time penetrating the IS-3 for what they cost (600 manpower 110 fuel).  The IS-3's resilience to the Panther gun could then be buffed back to its current state with each level of vet.

I would not like to have the IS-2 replaced with the IS-3 because I think Soviets need buildable IS-2s to deal with Panthers.  They had a lot of IS-2s historically anyways, so it makes no sense they should be limited to 1.  However, I wouldn't mind if a "IS-2 Ace" replaced the IS-3 for historical accuracy (stats could be the same), as I suggested a long time ago when the IS-3 first came out.

PE and Wehr panther use the same corsix entry. They are the same tank. We would have to create a own Panther for PE.

My idea was to make the IS2 a multible call in just like a hetzer.

[Chancellor]

PE and Wehr panther use the same corsix entry. They are the same tank. We would have to create a own Panther for PE.

My idea was to make the IS2 a multible call in just like a hetzer.

I wouldn't like the IS-2 to be doctrine specific IMO.  A possible solution would be to make it like the non-doctrinal PE Panther call-in, but overall, doctrinal or not, I feel the IS-2 should cost fuel or else it would be too OP for a multiple call-in.  Dual Panther call-in is already borderline OP, but that's just because the rest of the PE tanks kind of suck.  If Soviets get a IS-2 call in that costs no fuel, compounded with their already formidable arsenal of tanks, there's a problem.

Overall, I really think the IS-2 is fine where it is.  The IS-3 could be replaced by an "IS-2 Ace" with the same stats as the IS-3 for historical accuracy, but that's about it.

And for Dane's complaints against the IS-2, I find them invalid, simply because the IS-2 is not an OP unit right now.  Its the IS-3.  The IS-2s cost more resources than a Panther, and around the same teching costs.  They're also slower than the Panther.  Sure an IS-2 horde can be very powerful, but so can a bunch of Vet 3 Wehrmacht Panthers, for example.

[e-gon]

I just dont get it, why does this super powerfull doctrine need heavy tank with awesome stats?
Even if schrecks and Paks would make more dmg it would be way better than the ISU152, because its a still the best heavy tank Its Speed makes it just unkillabel, in good hands.
I played on Langers vs a Highrank(Iball16++) 1o1 Player, he used it and won the battel because of it, the Is3 is way to strong vs Wehrmacht tanks. Even 2Panthers are no match for him, thats just ridiculous, think of the Us 4M10 and what happens to a King Tiger, Vet3TIger or a Jagdpanther
JUST REMOVE ALL SORT OF HEAVY TANKS NO IS3 NO IS2 ACE from this doctrine and gave it the SU-100 as a reward unit (cheaper earlier available and/or 2 callabel f.e.), a tankhunter fits well in this doctrine, but a heavy tank is just (sry for hard word) bullshit
Just look at the Pe, you dint give them a e-75 as a reward unit for the JP
The IS3 is atm the biggest balance Problem for EF

[Dreamerbg]

Maybe the Ostheer "king" tiger will be enought powerfull to deal with IS3

I mean "royal" tiger who is also "king" tiger.

They also have an Elefant and I think it is also very very powerful unit and it is a tank destroyer

[Pac-Fish]

Well Panthers arent so effective at killing infantry. From my experience they'll snipe infantry 1 out of every 3 shots. IS-2 seems to get it half the time and it seems to do explodey dmg like a Sherman 

[Imperial Dane]

Err.. My complaints about the IS-2 are invalid ? I merely pointed out that in the majority of replays, players go straight for that, they don't bother with anything else in the tank hall most of the time.

I mean i've even seen replays with mister godlikedennis here pretty much ignoring all the contents and going straight for the IS2s.. and then of course the IS3

What are the stats of an IS 2 ? Of an iS 3 ? In comparison with German tanks ? Because i do get the impression that an IS-2 and IS-3 have a lot more health than the Panther that people seem to keep on harping on about.

In fact, i also get the impression that some people seem to think it's meant to be a direct counter to the Panther ?

And more curiously... When someone threw the IS-2 in the tank hall, was the decision really "We need something to absorb panzershreck and AT gun fire" And that is rather where it all falls apart it seems for those claiming the IS-2 is fine. You're tacking on an awful lot of roles for some pretty heavy armour. And then leaving it to be buildable. The axis equivalent would be to allow the wehrmacht to build tiger tanks.

And what would happen if people could build tiger tanks ? They'd ignore pretty much everything else in the Panzer Command. So why did you throw in the IS-2 ? Apparently from what i understand you went out from a "counter" mentality, rathern than apparently thinking how the army ought to operate and then balance out from there.. And then somehow the IS-3 snuck it's way in there as well making things even more hilariously fun.

Now i'm not saying the IS-2 is overpowered. WHAT i am saying is it is malplaced and is essentially rendering largely the entire tank hall ... pointless. Again, nothing against balance, it might be costed perfectly and everything.. But design wise, the placement of it does not fit well at all. And again, throw in the IS-3 and the entire breakthrough doctrine and you essentially end up with way too much synergy. The equivalent of which would be if the wehrmacht could build tigers, call in a King Tiger and then call in luftwaffe troops to repair it all.

Again, individually might work nicely. But together and it just becomes a huge mess. And quite frankly probably just scares off players.

[Pac-Fish]

@Dane: AFAIK the IS-2 does slightly better than a Panther. This is assuming both tanks have no vet. Apparently the IS-3 does worse than a KT but from my experience its the opposite . And yes, many ppl consider the IS-2 a Panther counter although some ppl just get it to blow s**t up since its so powerful.