Historical battles in COH

[BlackCloud]

Hello everybody this is my first post on this forum! I followed this mod for a while and i finally decided to register here. This is definetly one of the best mods I've ever played, keep it up like that! First of all i'm sorry for my bad english, i will try to be clear enough!

I see that this community is doing tournaments and i would like to introduce my idea of what COH can be with this mod and with the help of the entire community. Now, have you ever read about the battle of Stalingrad? After the "Operation Uranus" was launched the 6th German Army was encircled, most of the soldiers were decimated and even the Generalfeldmarschall surrendered to the Soviet army. The "Battle of Stalingrad" has been one of the worst military disasters in German History. Now i was thinking, what if we recreate such brutal battles in COH? We got the game, we got the maps, we got the units, we got the mod: we only need some rules.
This is my example of how a historical battle in Company of Heroes should be. If it's not historical accurate enough please post a comment below and if argued i will add it to the post.

newbielink:http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/692pxstalingradencircle.png/ [nonactive]

Uploaded with newbielink:http://imageshack.us [nonactive]
Axis side

• 6th Army
• Elements of the 4th Panzer Division
• Luftwaffe air support
• 16th Motorized Infantry Division (Wehrmacht)

Avaible Units
Wehrmacht
NO MG bunkers
Wehrmacht Quarters
Volksgrenadiers
MG42 (limit: 2)
Motorcycle/Swimmwagen
Sniper (limit: 2)
Krieg Barracks
Sdkfz 251 Halftrack (only without upgrades)
Grenadiers
Gr.34 8cm Mortar Team
Pak 38 50mm AT Gun
Sturm Armory
Officer
Panzer Command
Panzer IV
1 Panther
Avaible abilities tree
Defensive Doctrine: all except for 88mm Flak 36 AT/AA and Rocket Artillery
BlitzKrieg Doctrine: Assault Grenadiers, Blitzkrieg Assault! and Resource Blitz only
Terror Doctrine: Zeal, Propaganda War and Inspired Assault
newbielink:http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?s=78f5d653f2bc8cb38997478385dc46ed&act=Attach&type=post&id=372281 [nonactive]
Panzer Elite
Headquarters
Kettenrad
Panzer Grenadiers
(NO upgrades for Panther Battle Group)
Logistik Kompanie
Munitions Halftrack
Kampfgruppe Kompanie
Infantry Halftrack
Panzer-Jager Kommand
Assault Grenadier Heavy Infantry
Panzer-Jager Kommand
Panzer IV Infantry Support Tank
Light AT Halftrack
Avaible abilities tree
Luftwaffe Tactics: Fallschirmjager Infiltration, Butterfly Bombs and Henschel 'PanzerKnacker' Support only.
Scorched Earth: all except for Sector Artillery and Hummel Self-Propelled Artillery.
Tank Destroyer Tactics: Teller Mines, Tank Awareness and APCR Rounds only.
newbielink:http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=361240 [nonactive]

Goal:
Defend Stalingrad's victory points until the end of the match.
Optional: Counterattack the Soviet lines.

Russian Side

• 62nd Rifle Army
• 4th Tank Division
• 5th Tank Army
• 1st Guards Army

Avaible Units
Tanks: Only T-(numbers) tank, no KV-1 KV-2 KV-85 SU-122 SU-76 SU-85 and so on...
Infantry: All infantry squads are available
Avaible ability tree
Propaganda Doctrine: all except for M1927 cannon and Artillery Strike (not Katyusha)
Urban Combat Doctrine: all except for KV-2 tank and Partisans (you can still take them but only to advance the ability tree)
Armored Assault Doctrine: all except for IL-2 Sturmovik and of course SU-85 and Lo Juggernaut.
Buildings: All production buildings are available except for defensive buildings like artillery and MG emplacements.

Goal:
Capture and hold at least 2 victory points until the end of the match.
Optional: Destroy the Axis base.


Rules
Personally i think this can be done only if players follow the rules correctly. The match will be on Stalingrad map (3vs3) with 1000 victory points. The Russian can and MUST attack only after 150 points. During that time both size must build defenses and produce units. Also Axis can't capture territories that are between their Victory Points and the Russian base. After 500 points the Axis will also be able to counterattack if they still hold all 3 victory points.

Unit Choices
Some of you may be complaining about the Panzer Elite faction, which doesn't have much units to produce. The thing is that i made the Panzer Elite to looks like the Wehrmacht because it will be part of 3 Division (Luftwaffe with the Doctrine, 16th Motorized Infantry Division with Halftracks and Assault Grenadier Heavy Infantry and 4th Panzer Division with, of course, Panzer IV Infantry Support Tank) that means it can very powerful and adaptable on the battlefield. For the Wehrmacht no mg bunkers just because historically there wasn't enough time to build heavy bunkers with MG. Also i decided to put only 2 MG because the 6th army was starving and low on supplies and that means they simply didn't have the ammo to fire constantly with a lot MGs. Same thing for 1 Panther: historically most of the tanks were useless during urban combats because they were an easy target for ambushes and most of them were abandoned because of their lack of mobility. No flak cannons and stuff, do I really have to explain this? About Russian tanks: in the beginning they were very weak and easy to kill, during the Battle of Stalingrad Russians made some improvements but still they were more cost>power and tanks like SU-85 weren't in production yet. No buildings for Russians because of course they are attacking...

If you think this can/can't work and it will/won't be fun just post a comment below to let me know if i should write more of these! Also again sorry for my bad english!

[Pac-Fish]

You have pretty good English actually . So basically you want to recreate the Battle of Stalingrad in an EF game? Sounds fun enough

[Cranialwizard]

Well if the Axis would get up to Stalingrad, there would be a Stalingrad Scenario already

Limiting the types of units that can be built is not such a good idea. A faction is reliant on what is available to the player. Mortar halftracks have a unique purpose for the Panzer Elite, and so do Armored Cars, so do Marders. Taking them out/limiting their usage in a match like this is pretty messed up seeing that the PE rely on these units for AT. The setup I currently see is an all-out anti-infantry army with a ATHT which is not by any means heavy AT.

This could be mended with the Tank Destroyer Doctrine, but you took out the call-ins from that doctrine as well. Removing key aspects of a doctrine is lethal.

You also have to think a little: Yes, you can get APCR rounds, but without Panthers, Marders, Hetzers, what is going to be affected by this ability?

Same thing for the Wehrmacht. Out of the whole T3, you can only build the officer? Without Stukas, this leaves the Wehrmacht with absolutely no artillery or fast AI/AT support and leads to camping. Removing units/abilities can be dangerous to a faction.

Also for Russians. Why no KV-type tanks? T-34s did not "Historically" fight at Stalingrad as I recall, and KVs were the mainstream of Soviet armor until the legendary 34 was unleashed onto the battlefield. KVs also make for better combat on a Stalingrad like map because of their better frontal armor, and urban environment offer little room for flanking and thus nullify the T-34's prime advantage: Speed.

If the battle should be situated to be in an Urban environment, why bother limiting the Urban doctrine? I've already explained why eliminating options within doctrines is not good.

While it sounds like a fun idea on paper, it may not turn out the way you necessarily wanted it to in game. Personally, I also like Railroad Station One (Another Stalingrad map) better than Stalingrad. There's less lag involved and plenty of play room. 1000 VPs is also a lot, I would stick with 500. Most people don't realize how intense games can be until they're actually played. Couple weeks ago I won a 500 VP automatch after AN HOUR AND A HALF of gameplay.

These are just my opinions. By the way, your english is crystal clear

[Pac-Fish]

Yeah limiting so much isn't such a good idea. I didn't realie you had limited so much b4  . I mean you can limit some units for historical purposes but if you remove too many then it will be hard to play. And why a limit to MGs and snipers? There were so many in Stalingrad .

[BlackCloud]

Well I actually tried to be historically accurate as possible, the panzer elite doctrines aren't suppose to be about reinforcements (the Axis were surrounded). If it was for me I had remove the 2 doctrine and leave only Luftwaffe because it was really there. I think you're right on this:

If the battle should be situated to be in an Urban environment, why bother limiting the Urban doctrine? I've already explained why eliminating options within doctrines is not good.

but with partisans the Russians will get some sort of advantage over the Axis. There is no point doing a Historical battle if it's unbalanced on one side. Both sides must be even and they must fit their role. With the Marders III, Panthers and Tigers the the Axis can easily counterattack and it's no longer history. I removed some units because axis must be fit to defend and at the same time Russians must be fit attacking with some fair balance against the defenders.

KVs also make for better combat on a Stalingrad like map because of their better frontal armor, and urban environment offer little room for flanking and thus nullify the T-34's prime advantage: Speed.

In fact Russians took back Stalingrad, but with thousands of tanks loses. I have to try out this and see how much time is a 1000p with these tactics.

You have pretty good English actually

By the way, your english is crystal clear

Thanks, it's nice to hear that 

[Otto Halfhand]

Hey Blackcloud. Welcome to the club. I like your concept but think it might be better suited to an operational challenge or perhaps a campaign mode. What the guys have said about limiting the OBs is true. I can see the possibilty of limiting the Heavy tanks from all sides. Similarly no panzer upgrade for T34/PzII or Stug. I also can see the advantage of Using T34/76s for the historical flavor. If the sides were limited to Ostheer and Soviets your idea could work. I wouldn't limit the other units though on either side.

I think your concept would work better with Maps that have a historically accurate feel. For example 6th_army_siege scenario create a map with an Ostheer base area(s) in the center and Soviet bases scattered around three of the four corners. Fourth corner would be for other Ostheer bases. No need to place the restrictions on either side. Its the battle that should have the historical feel
not the historically accurate OB.

If a one _off mission was used campaign wise the Foreign_Support troops could be introduced to new players.

[Pac-Fish]

You know what did reminds me of? Operation Stonewall. Maybe there could be an Operation Stonewall that is reminiscent of the Stalingrad battle. That could work

[BlackCloud]

Limiting units it's a way to forcing the player to defend without any complex mapping or scripting to make it happens  .  Still if you guys are interested in this just let me know and ill try making some maps however about challenge maps i don't think i can do much about it since i'm a total idiot with scripts and stuffs 

[CoHmodderSolo]

This is actually thought of really well. Great job! It can be done with a custom mission, like Joint Ops missions so players wont have to follow the rules, it will already be set. You will need to know how to mod CoH, create missions and use World builder.