Compstompers Corner

[Otto Halfhand]

The purpose of this thread is to solicit the views of the Compstomper crowd, that may be beneficial to EF mod development and to stompers in general. Please no trashing of anyone.

blackbishop has this to say:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114783#msg114783

I am in agreement with him. I hope he was engaging in hyperbole when he suggested only 1 in a thousand compstomper posts could be expected to be useful. 

For Starters:

• It is evident to any Stomper that the AI doesn't know how to Lock down a Zis Ambulance. IIRC the Dev Team doesn't have a handle on  correcting this issue at present. Any ideas? (other than removing the ZIs from the AI BO if no solution can be found).
• The Sov AI BO spawns sharpshooter squads that upgrade to 1 man FO's and no snipers. jojorabbit has a v1.0 solution to this. The DevTeam should solicit his input.
• In AI teamplay the initial BO are the same. IE AI 3x3 at T1 Wher you can expect to see 3MGs/ 3MGs/ 3 snipers to appear at the same time. Since the Comp sees all/ knows all the human player gets targeted with these miniblobs. It is not a problem per se. But it does influence how a novice player/stomper is impacted by their early EF experience. An experienced Player will just say "learn how to  play". An experienced Stomper will learn how to play with the miniblob condition. The player/stomper tactical responses are radically different tactically and in this case mutually exclusive. Unfortunately the novice player gets frustrated, snubbed,(unintentionally of course), and moves onto another mod. I  think a little more compassion on the part of oldtimers might be in order when dealing with the noobs. Wether a newcomer to EF goes the player route or the stomper route, rest assured they won't play if they don't stay.

Moderators move this thread to wherever you deem it most appropriate.

[stealthattack1]

even though i doubt i will spend much time on this thread, i still think its a good idea. good job!

[Otto Halfhand]

@Stealthattack1: You just made my day. One post, one good idea.... Why the odds are 1000:1. 

[jojorabbit]

Nice idea for a thread.

The purpose of this thread is to solicit the views of the Compstomper crowd, that may be beneficial to EF mod development and to stompers in general. Please no trashing of anyone.

blackbishop has this to say:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114783#msg114783

I am in agreement with him. I hope he was engaging in hyperbole when he suggested only 1 in a thousand compstomper posts could be expected to be useful. 

For Starters:

• It is evident to any Stomper that the AI doesn't know how to Lock down a Zis Ambulance. IIRC the Dev Team doesn't have a handle on  correcting this issue at present. Any ideas? (other than removing the ZIs from the AI BO if no solution can be found).
• The Sov AI BO spawns sharpshooter squads that upgrade to 1 man FO's and no snipers. jojorabbit has a v1.0 solution to this. The DevTeam should solicit his input.
• In AI teamplay the initial BO are the same. IE AI 3x3 at T1 Wher you can expect to see 3MGs/ 3MGs/ 3 snipers to appear at the same time. Since the Comp sees all/ knows all the human player gets targeted with these miniblobs. It is not a problem per se. But it does influence how a novice player/stomper is impacted by their early EF experience. An experienced Player will just say "learn how to  play". An experienced Stomper will learn how to play with the miniblob condition. The player/stomper tactical responses are radically different tactically and in this case mutually exclusive. Unfortunately the novice player gets frustrated, snubbed,(unintentionally of course), and moves onto another mod. I  think a little more compassion on the part of oldtimers might be in order when dealing with the noobs. Wether a newcomer to EF goes the player route or the stomper route, rest assured they won't play if they don't stay.

Moderators move this thread to wherever you deem it most appropriate.

1. For start use Zis ambulance similar to triage center lock it down near hq. Maybe to improve later.

2. Don't worry i have informed some of EF team members about my solution, probably they are busy so i have to be patient. Well since you discovered my work i will tell more about what i did.

I noticed when playing against 2x Soviet AI both made same stuff.
Here is what i have done.
- made new BO similar to one here :
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114922#msg114922
- Turn off Arty spotter for AI

After 10 mins of game AI controlled about 60-70% of map with army on image:


Basic BO was: Ing x2 (build SSB) - T2b - Sniper x2
From image it kinda looks like GodlikeDennis mentioned here:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114941#msg114941
Backtech to T1 and get CS/Strelky AI had some conscripts too .

Q: What do you think about AI army after 10mins? Please specify pros and cons of army? Suppose that you started as wehr BO HMG and volks cuz you did not expect snipers, what would you do next.

Q2: Any comments suggestions?

Note: It was VP game on Angoville Farms.

3. I don't think they are same, they are very similar.
Almost in each Wehr BO there is sniper or HMG or both so it looks same, that is why you got 3MGs/ 3MGs/ 3 snipers.
I think AI made that cuz you had mostly rifleman and maybe HMG.

A little about how Wehr AI "thinks" it is just poor example AI is ways better then this.
- I have build t1 lets see what unit is best to use against enemy units.
-> Does enemy have sniper
           -> yes -> build motorbike
           -> no  -> lets see other stuff
-> Does enemy have HMG or rifleman
          -> yes -> build sniper or build HMG
          -> no  -> lets see other stuff

What am trying to say is that AI counters HMG with snipers or mortars since mortars are not available  in t1 AI uses snipers, AI counters snipers with motorbikes or counter sniping, etc.

Am still noob and i play like noob. I like to play slowly most of time defensively and still did not leave mod i only play it more .

[Otto Halfhand]

A very impressive OB in ten minutes. X4 AI factions - definitely unbalanced. A probability matrix needs to be added for Sharpshooter BO. 30%sniper/70% FO? or T2b BO 35%AT/25% Sniper/20%FO/20% Zis Ambulance? Do you have any ideas on how to get the FO sharpshooter to reinforce?

BTW what difficulty level was AI set at? It might be a good idea to use normal settings for test runs. IIRC normal=Human resource collection rate.

With a fast vehicle start a Player can produce ~ 3 t70/t90 s in 10 minutes.

[jojorabbit]

A very impressive OB in ten minutes. X4 AI factions - definitely unbalanced. A probability matrix needs to be added for Sharpshooter BO. 30%sniper/70% FO? or T2b BO 35%AT/25% Sniper/20%FO/20% Zis Ambulance? Do you have any ideas on how to get the FO sharpshooter to reinforce?

BTW what difficulty level was AI set at? It might be a good idea to use normal settings for test runs. IIRC normal=Human resource collection rate.

With a fast vehicle start a Player can produce ~ 3 t70/t90 s in 10 minutes.

AI was set to hard.

AI does not know how to use arty spotter so he does not reinforce it, and uses it like normal sniper attacks with it etc, currently i have turned arty spotter off for ai until i accomplish what i want .

Will test other Denis BOs as soon as i will have more time .

[Otto Halfhand]

I would like to discuss is the notion that the Sovs are an infantry faction. They are of course, and a particularly fine one at that. I do not use the Sovs as an infantry oriented faction. I view it in terms of a Combined Arms faction. One of the crew indicated the Sov faction was designed to have a weak end-game. I fear he is right. I think the idea is bad  from a game design POV. But it is what it is. 

If you use the Sovs as a CA oriented faction it doesn't have a weak endgame at all. The Soviet TO&E is wonderful. With lots of AFV types and superior action at a distance weaponry; why would you want to invest energy in developing infantry tactics. There is a fly in the ointment as well. 8 pop cost for Guards. I'm sure it is a balance issue, so I shouldn't comment. But really, a Gds Squad is equal to a T34/KV?

If you are a stomper and don't care if Players know it, post a profile here.  It will help us optimize our style of gaming experience.

Stomper Profile
I am a Stomper. PE Kampfgruppe tactics are my meat. Wehr is a wonderful faction but the vet system is no fun and I have an aesthetic  aversion to StugIV, (and Bergetigers too. I don't mind the T90 prototype though). My basic OB is low level infantry, tank hunters, upgraded (artillery and armor). My present knowledge of EF 1.6 sees me using hard settings and 2v2 , 3v3 and 2v3AI most of the time. 1v1 needs must be a different beast but I prefer expert settings for that. When the good humor truck lockdown issue is resolved play vs Sov AI will be improved,(harder). I win about 80% of the time, and when I lose it is always a soft kill. Surprisingly 1000VP games are my nemesis. I am looking forward to 250 VP games in the not to distant future. I normally play with the Sovs and Heer. This would be unthinkable for MP team play. Sovs vs PE AI is a cakewalk. Playing against CW AI is a waste of time. RMC is pretty good. I hope it comes back online quickly. Sov AI and Amis AI opponents are pretty good. I give the Sovs and edge here. When it comes to micro I am "physically challenged", (you can read that as retarded, I've been a gimp all my life - I don't mind. And retarded is a better description).

[Cranialwizard]

I would like to discuss is the notion that the Sovs are an infantry faction. They are of course, and a particularly fine one at that. I do not use the Sovs as an infantry oriented faction. I view it in terms of a Combined Arms faction. One of the crew indicated the Sov faction was designed to have a weak end-game. I fear he is right. I think the idea is bad  from a game design POV. But it is what it is. 

If you use the Sovs as a CA oriented faction it doesn't have a weak endgame at all. The Soviet TO&E is wonderful. With lots of AFV types and superior action at a distance weaponry; why would you want to invest energy in developing infantry tactics. There is a fly in the ointment as well. 8 pop cost for Guards. I'm sure it is a balance issue, so I shouldn't comment. But really, a Gds Squad is equal to a T34/KV?

The Soviets are more of a Combined Arms faction than anything, not an infantry nor a vehicular. Relatively diverse teching, powerful infantry and strong/speedy tanks all equate to such a faction that really can not rely well on just vehicles or just on infantry yet when used in combination the two work beautifully.

I wouldn't call the Soviet Endgame weak. (IS-2=Parallel to PBG/T34-85/KV-85/Shock Guards)
 It is designed to be a very powerful endgame, comparable to the Wehrmacht but still unable to steamroll the axis. (An IS-3 will still lose to a KT in a one-on-one if the Wehrmacht player keeps the IS-3 from hitting him in the rear too often. In previous patches with horrid balance, a single IS-2 was able to beat a King Tiger if played properly.)

Guards are placed at 8 Pop because of their incredible diversity in countering, their immeasurable resilience to enemy fire and extremely powerful upgrades. Compare them to the Knights Cross Holders, whom come with 6 CP. Guards can throw powerful grenades against both infantry and tanks, can deploy smoke to help advance against infantry, and come with elite armor right off the bat. The SVT-40 is an improved rifle that is powerful at nearly all ranges (though most happy at medium-long range), and gives the squad an extra punch. If you invest in Shock Guards, you unlock the only squad in the game that can run-and-gun with a LMG on the move. They can also use PPS-43s with that upgrade, which are fairly on-par (or more powerful) than MP40s, making them a beefier assault squad compared to the KCH.

If you are a stomper and don't care if Players know it, post a profile here.  It will help us optimize our style of gaming experience.

I like the idea of this thread. Hopefully it will cater to the AI loving crowd and help build the community a bit more. Maybe you guys will team up more often and venture into PvP play. 

Stomper Profile
I am a Stomper. PE Kampfgruppe tactics are my meat. Wehr is a wonderful faction but the vet system is no fun and I have an aesthetic  aversion to StugIV, (and Bergetigers too. I don't mind the T90 prototype though). My basic OB is low level infantry, tank hunters, upgraded (artillery and armor). My present knowledge of EF 1.6 sees me using hard settings and 2v2 , 3v3 and 2v3AI most of the time. 1v1 needs must be a different beast but I prefer expert settings for that. When the good humor truck lockdown issue is resolved play vs Sov AI will be improved,(harder). I win about 80% of the time, and when I lose it is always a soft kill. Surprisingly 1000VP games are my nemesis. I am looking forward to 250 VP games in the not to distant future. I normally play with the Sovs and Heer. This would be unthinkable for MP team play. Sovs vs PE AI is a cakewalk. Playing against CW AI is a waste of time. RMC is pretty good. I hope it comes back online quickly. Sov AI and Amis AI opponents are pretty good. I give the Sovs and edge here. When it comes to micro I am "physically challenged", (you can read that as retarded, I've been a gimp all my life - I don't mind. And retarded is a better description).

Soviet VS PE balance is a bit messed up (noticeable in some team games) primarily because of teching but it's definitely being looked into. RMC won't return for a while as it's a bit of a mess to clean up, and it's hard (impossible even??) for the AI to use the RMC. (I don't remember if that was fixed yet.)

Generally the more time the Wehrmacht has to recollect and counterattack, the worse off you'll be, primarily because their strength comes with veterancy and elite late game units (Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, KCH, Vetted Grens) as opposed to Numbers which is somewhat how the Soviets are measured out.

As for underlined, I wouldn't say that Just a bit of a hindering, it shouldn't stop you from enjoying the game. 

[Otto Halfhand]

Hey! Let the last become first: I do enjoy the game, especially since EFcame on line.

Re Guards. I don't question the potency of Guards one iota. Nice to know they still have that Shoot on the Scoot LMG. What's the accuracy penalty while moving? One of you'all stated the Gds SVT40 is the Same as NI SVT40. Seems to me that 90 HP Gds with PPS would make more sense if you had 5 SVT40s in an NI squad for mid=range work. What are the HP for NI right now?

In either case at 8 pop /squad I usually end up opting for a T34/85. ALthough I am coming to like the KV/85 more and more.

As for CW/RMC AI featuring the suicide highlander command trucks I think someone who understands SCAR programming could implement a change that prohibited U/L command trucks when a given minimum "victory condition" isn't met. It could also initiate L/D for same if you fell below the minimum condition. Not perfect of course but better than a convoy of command trucks running past your AT/shreks.

[Dann88]

Can I compstomp with you  What's your id in CoH?

[Otto Halfhand]

Can I compstomp with you  What's your id in CoH?

TheIronDream @ 10 ish 4.7.12 i will be happy to engage. 
Dann  just so you know, this thread is oriented more to a discussion thread rather than a play dating service.    I glad you posted. 

[Dann88]

About Brits trucks, just let them stay at base only like Zis medic truck and give the Brits more res income than other factions with same difficult. IE: normal Brits get more res than US normal no matter the trucks go out the base or not. Because the AI's job is getting as hard as they can to make it a challenge to human player.

[GodlikeDennis]

Guards fill many of the roles of Stormtroopers. Likewise, they cost 8 pop so they aren't spammed as main infantry. In previous iterations, guards were only 4-6 pop compared to the Strelky 7. This was a contributing factor to why people would just blob them up late game. Now it's 8 vs 6.

NI SVTs are similar (the same?) as M1 Garands for US riflemen. NI need to be upgraded to be good. Guards have the Strelky mosin by default. Their SVT upgrade is very powerful.

[Otto Halfhand]

Guards fill many of the roles of Stormtroopers. Likewise, they cost 8 pop so they aren't spammed as main infantry. In previous iterations, guards were only 4-6 pop compared to the Strelky 7. This was a contributing factor to why people would just blob them up late game. Now it's 8 vs 6.

NI SVTs are similar (the same?) as M1 Garands for US riflemen. NI need to be upgraded to be good. Guards have the Strelky mosin by default. Their SVT upgrade is very powerful.

EF documentation say NI getSVT40. SVT40s=M1 =GD/SVT40? or not?

[GodlikeDennis]

NI SVTs = M1 Garands
Guard SVTs are roughly based on PE G43s, much stronger.