Compstompers Corner

[Nils18]

Excellent initiative! If anybody is interested in playing compstomp matches/discuss different tactics, add me: Ils23

[jojorabbit]

Hi, all.

I know that am not part of EF team. No offence to anyone.
AI is great but there are a lot of bugs specially in soviet AI.
No offence to EF AI coders they did a great job.

Am writing this mainly cuz I know that i can fix some of bugs to make AI more challenge to human players .
Maybe some of you will think am too ambitious but am not.

So we have these bugs in AI:

BRIT TRUCKS BUG

About Brits trucks, just let them stay at base only like Zis medic truck and give the Brits more res income than other factions with same difficult. IE: normal Brits get more res than US normal no matter the trucks go out the base or not. Because the AI's job is getting as hard as they can to make it a challenge to human player

ARTY SPOTTER REINFORCE BUG:
AI does not reinforce Arty spotter.

ZIS MEDIC TRUCK BUG:

For start use Zis ambulance similar to triage center lock it down near hq. Maybe to improve later.

ZIS3 BUG:
I also noticed some bugs with ZIS3-AT. But will leave that for other post when i will know more about it.
Here are some changes that i made:
- fixed: bug AI upgrades molotovs even if it does not have any conscripts (rule: at least have 2 conscripts for molotovs), AI forces conscript rifle upgrade (if using propaganda doctrine)

- fixed: vCOH AI properly counters Soviet snipers and AT-guns
- fixed: Soviet AI properly counters vCoH light vehicles
- fixed: Soviet AI builds normal mines
- fixed: some balancing of Russian AI upgrade system (like AI does not upgrade tank hunters or shock guards if he can't build them -> they require some other stuff like close support for tank hunters)
- fixed: Soviet AI likes Sturmovie more then before
- fixed: Soviet AI gets vehicles faster then before
- fixed: Soviet Sharp Shooter and Arty Spotter bug -> now AI upgrades to sniper more often then to Arty Spotter (only 1 arty spotter allowed )
- fixed: some build limitations of Soviet AI

Making ai more challenging
- all AI factions build more mines then usual


Any critics, comments, suggestions are welcome.
Please report all bugs you may find .

Thank you.

[Otto Halfhand]

@jojorabbit  +3  Caesar was ambitious and he conquered Gaul, Hispanicus and Aegyptus. I do believe you can conquer Mother Russia.

Excellent initiative! If anybody is interested in playing compstomp matches/discuss different tactics, add me: Ils23

This is the place for comp v P play Strategy & Tactics. (Note: 2v2 and 3v3 games are the usual basis for AI unit quantities. If your thinking in terms of 1v1 please say so. That is a whole different game for stompers).

For starters: stompers have to face combinations that are very uncommon for players. 6-8 MG42s 3 snipers and three ATG's are not uncommon and frequently appear in combination. Since SAKA applies (Sees All, Knows All), these heavy hitters magically appear in your area of operations. Sound familiar?

Tactic Screening: Employ a low reinforce-cost squad  as a shield between your High value squads, (CS, snipers, PGs), and the enemy. Conscripts , Strelky, THs are good choices for Sovs. Falls and LWGF and kets screen PG's well. Rifle squads and VGs work well with Amis and Wehr. The CW recce section is a particularly good screening unit.

Doctrine of Pairs (Concentration of Force): Always use groups of twos or threes on the front line. Two infantry squads is always a good bet. Two ACs for PE is potent. the pairs need not be identical  Sov Strelky/Tank hunter Platoons give a nice soft counter. Sov infantry companies are better. (INF, INF, TH). My favorite however is two 107mm mortars. Other factions of course will other combinations.

Maneuver and Fire is an American development from the WWII era. works well with infantry platoons (2 squads). The tactic is to move from cover to cover. As one squad achieves cover (green for preference) it stops, and the hindmost squad advances leapfrogging to the next good cover or perhaps a capping point. .Yes I just advocated using two squads to cap one point. Should enemy come into contact with you stop the advancing/capping squad  and seek cover, preferably off to the flank were the squad may use enfilade fire or flanking.
If you have a superiority of 3:1 in rifles (squads if you prefer), consider engaging the enemy.

M & F works well with infantry companies (3 squads). Three infantry squads is good but I think a support squad is better. The obvious choices for support are HMGs, Mortars and snipers. Less obvious support squads include AT-infantry engineers. In addition to the soft vehicle counter you have the ability to bypass strong points while the support squads can reduce outposts, pill boxes and emplacements and/or engage in  defencing operations.

I suggest using the infantry company as a group. When it encounters overwhelming force the group can retreat to base; where you will have a viable combat force ready to resume operations in short order.

Far and away the best Squad type for M&F operations is the Amis rifle squad with BARsuppression.

[Otto Halfhand]

Do you prefer to use the T34 series or the KV series when you go Stomping. I like the KV series myself. They can take a couple more shots of damage before they retire from the fight. Not so fast as the T34s but I for one don't enjoy the point blank death spiral duels that individual tank battles devolve into.

I normally only deploy tanks in 2 vehicle platoons because of PoP considerations. I think a 3 tank company using a maneuver element (one tank) and a 2 tank (platoon) fire element would work very well together. What has been your experience in this regard? I always include 2ing or one Stormovie with my tank formations for repairs.

[Pac-Fish]

Well generally T-34s are faster but KVs are stronger. IIRC KVs cost more. I prefer T-34s but since we are stomping here I think KVs are better.

[Cranialwizard]

The question shouldn't be who your opponent is, rather, what your best tactics are and what the map/setting will be like.

T34s can use their speed to their advantage to deliver fast firepower and flank enemy emplacements to allow the advancement of other armor. Their gun is fairly powerful for a medium tank but inaccurate on the move. I would use these guys on the move in a shoot and stop tactic, getting around heavy AT guns or circling things like Marders and Stugs and hit them hard.

KVs, on the other hand, offer thicker armor and thus less penetration from weapons like Paks, Shrecks, and other AT items you commonly see at the stage of the game you can pop a KV1. Though ghastly slow, their armor serves well to protect it from such AT measures and thus you can use them to advance forward instead of flanking.

Map basis and play style is key. On a map like Langres, your best bet is to use the T34 because of flanking manuvers and fairly open ground except for the Hedge in the middle.

On a map like Semois, however, vision and mobility is severly blocked by Buildings and tall walls and hedges. T34 flank attacks won't do you much good here. To protect against sneaky PaKs you should invest in KVs because of the increased armor.

On a map like Angoville...it's sort of 50/50 because of the map dynamic. T34s are a good choice but KVs could come in handy because of the western part of the map.

Just examples.

[Otto Halfhand]

Good advice and tips on the Flanking.

Stop, Shoot and move is the only way to get effective fire from the T34/76, IMO. Its also historically relevant. 

Your mapping comments are correct but of less utility on many of THe EF maps, (Sylver's excluded). There is an awful amount of bad ground for armor on EF maps. Maybe the infantry orientation has something to do with that? BTW do you tend to play more on the Classic CoH maps or on EF maps? - just curious.

[Otto Halfhand]

Hi guys,
I've been working on AI coding for the Dev_Team. Much of this work is routine drudgery; making sure all Ts are crossed and Is dotted, and that everything is copacetic. It is about 10% write and 90%  rewrite. Pretty typical for most technical writing. I do not create new stuff per se but make sure the Devs Mod_concept is implemented and see that no EF_mod baby is left behind.

I am at a point where I believe the bookeeping parts of this task are under control and am starting to think about and implement how to improve the AI rather than just make it work correctly. Here is where you CompStompers come in. What kind of improvements do you want to see in the EF/CoH AI?

I am not talking about making new units or creating rules that target Triage Centers or anything that modifies the Balance in PVP that the Developers wish to maintain. At this point in time I am not well enough versed in Relic's SCAR coding to create new AI tactics. When I am confident I can do so I intend to develop and implement new AI tactics that emulate WWII era tactical doctrine.

I am working diligently to control SPAMs. Q. When is a SPAM not a SPAM? ... A. When it is a controlled SPAM. Six or more SU76s is a SPAM. If you see three SU76's, three T70's and Two T90's is this a SPAM? Well yes it is, but it is a controlled SPAM and much more interesting and challenging to counter.

OK stompers here is an opportunity to improve things for your style of play. All Suggestions and Ideas are welcomed.

[Nils18]

Well I don't know whether this is what you mean but... based on my experiences I think that there is a big difference between hard EF AI and expert EF AI. Expert is really about spamming whilst hard is making more different units. Did you take a look at that?

[Pac-Fish]

Spam is obviously the biggest issue amongest comp games. If units were hard capped at 3-4 then it would be a lot better.

Also the AI tends to retreat units too late and they die alot. Maybe if the squad health is like at 20% or 30%

And sometimes the AI make poor decisions (for ex: it tired to pio spam once). Maybe a certain BO should be implemented.

[Tankbuster]

Americans make too many support weapons.

[Otto Halfhand]

Tankbuster: do the support weapons you speak of have abilities that use munis? A list of what squads you are talking about would be helpful.

Fish: You are right about SPAM. I think uncontrolled SPAMS can be eliminated, (I may eat those words)  , without resorting to hard caps. The trick as I see it is to reduce the demand for the unit to demand < =15, at which point the Comp ignores it. I need to find a way to reduce the demands better. the existing code has a "reduced Demand on unit count FCN but it demonstratively doesn't work. I find that the AI squads retreat to soon for my liking but the condition you are referring to can be lessened by increasing the global (s.) defensiveness variable.

I tried an ingeneri spam BuildOrder and was less then satisfied with it. You might suggest a BO to be tried. BTW the AI coding for Wehr is not set up for piospam. It could be, but it isn't now. In general I have wehr ai on the backburner until Ostheer is working. Wehr's AI is better than most.

Nlis18: There are at least two ways in which AI_Hard and AI_Harder (expert), are different at present. Each level of difficulty has its own set of global (s.) variables. (Defensiveness was mentioned earlier). Other variables consider other conditions. The comp likes attack at 1.6:1 odds. Personally I would use 2:1 odds but these can be changed. The big kicker for AI is its resource bonus.
Easy has no bonuses. Standard, (normal) has a 1.2 x manpower bonus. hard has a 1.75 x MP bonus and a 1.5 x Fl. and Mt. bonus. Harder has a 2.0 x MP and 1.75 Fl. and Mt bonus. (the manpower bonuses maybe a little different. How the coder takes advantage of these bonuses is another matter all together. I think many modders say Ooh I like that and increase demands to high levels. it don't have to be so.

If any of you'all want to see what I am talking about get a copy of Notepad++ and load up the AI files from the mod. When you open a file set the language to Lua. Also I suggest that you set the read only flags on your files until you get an understanding of Lua and the Coh rules. Saves a lot of reloading the mod time.

[Pac-Fish]

On some specific maps the Wehr AI will make nothing but pios and are easily dominated.

US AI has a tendency to spam mortars. It seems to have no concept of going straight to t3, no matter the fuel it has.

[Otto Halfhand]

What maps in particular? BOs can be tailored for specific maps but the effectiveness of a BO is over- ridden after 8 minutes max. No hurry on this one Fish.

The biggest issue with Amis T3 as I understand it is the Amis Rifle Squad is a high value munitions squad. The munitions squads can override most coding efforts I am aware of at this time.

Mortar demand is a function of targets: Structures and emplacements and Sync weapons. This would include the at start bunkers and Quad flak emplacements in the base area. The Base MGs for CW and Sovs are not included. but if you play on a map with three bunkers per team member your initial mortardemand will be .09 Lightvehicle demand is based on count of snipers and spawning buildings. In a 3v3 game after the enemy builds one sniper apiece the the Lt_Veh_demand is only .06 . THis may account for the lack of Amis T3 builds as well as HT and AC are lightvehicles. Atta boy Fish. "MP44 now that's what I'm talking about".

[Otto Halfhand]

@ Sir Sharks alot:
I have looked into the mortar Spam you said the Amis AI produces. AMis Mortars are not a muni unit. They are hard capped at 2. Actually this means you should see only 3 mortars max per comp player. If you see more than 3 it means one of two things. 1. you are beating the comp severely. 2. There is a problem with the code. I will keep an eye out in working with the code to find the error. Amis are regretably the last on my priority list for the EF_mod but if its coded for one faction it may be coded for several. BTW I don't need a replay. I believe you.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Working with the developers I see different squads come and go. Some times I'm all for this. sometimes not. There are many interesting squads/models which the community never sees. As Compstompers would you like to see some of the squads that are not included in the mod for PvP play show up as comp squads? The mod devs want vCoH pvp play but if one side is all comp. "unofficial" or special SP units can be included for compstomps. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE THEM, ONLY KILL THEM! I can code this. If there is any interest at all I can figure out how to make a poll. but I want to "test the waters" here first. This is in no way official at this point. Just asking.