The not so gentle Art of Defencing.

[Otto Halfhand]

Hi guys,

VCOH PvP play places emphasis is on swift aggressive offence oriented play. No Problemo. After all everybody likes to win quickly so they can get on with it. High level players are generally very good at quick strikes to the Jugular. They do not emphasize the soft/slow approach. DEFENCING is an old martial arts form that concentrates on the Weak overcoming the Strong. The concept may be more familiar to you as the Tortoise and the Hare, (AKA Zeno's Paradox). Rest assured Highlevel players understand the concept well enough. Sim City is based upon defencing. It wasn't a level 6 player that came up with the old exploit of placing a mine on top of an AT mine, another example of defencing.

"What is this dude talking about"? Defencing is all about the Build Ability. Engineers, right? -well sort of. How many of you use the infantry build orders for anything but outposting? VG,G,LW,PG,NI,TH all have Defensive Build orders available some how or another. How many of you use anything but minelaying?

Why don't Strelky have defensive build orders available. Historically the Soviets were famous for throwing up defenses overnight. I think they should. I think PGs should have them too but it will not happen in EF. I have a rewards unit suggestion that could get this ability into EF, the model and animations are done. But it wouldn't be available until after Ostheer is out.

The reason I think, is because the players, (as opposed to compstompers, like me), don't think or talk about it. How many times have you heard it said that bridge maps and other constricted access maps are boring? (Nice solution on Zytomir BTW), In spite of this the Provkurovka? map, (site of the largest tank battle in wwii). keeps having more infantry cover added with each revision. Hell the Commonwealth faction was designed with Sim City in mind. (Well maybe).

I am not going to say anymore about Defencing in this post. My rant has gone on long enough. If there is interest I will be happy to continue the discussion with some solid Defencing tactics. All I would like you to do is think about it and maybe, just maybe mind you play with the concept a little.

[Pac-Fish]

Im a little confused (as I always seem to be :S) about your post. You want SU infantry to be more defensive, is that right? Just inquiring

[Trooper425]

Spread your wisdom oh wise defencer.

[Dann88]

Nah, he's trying to prove and explain his point, not demanding/wanting anything

[Sommarkatze]

In short , you want conscripts to be able to build barbed wire and sandbags ?

Naaah. Sorry to say no . Its part of the game The Soviets are already unique in its way . They dont need anything the others have ^^

You should however have credits for a very nice formulated thread! Really proffesionel!

[Cranialwizard]

Spread your wisdom oh wise defencer.

Play nice.


Soviets have multiple units that can lay and build defensive emplacements. I don't see too much of an issue, but remember by default most troops can not construct defenses.

American Riflemen can only make "Defensive" emplacements with doctrinal abilities. They become similar to the engineer function.
Likewise, Panzer Grenadiers can only make "Defensive" emplacements with a specific doctrine. They're limited to Wire and Roadblocks. To construct Mines you'd need to tech to a certain unit.
It is likewise true that the Wehrmacht basic infantry (Volks AND Grens) can make Wire and Sandbags without any sort of doctrinal requirement. While it seems unfair, there are several reasons for this:

• Pioneers are fragile
• The Wehrmacht are much slower to progress
• Wehrmacht squads overall have less men than American squads, whom are designed to counter the Wehrmacht
• The Wehrmacht generally needs to stay at range. Advancing on enemy infantry in cover is not a good idea.

British Tommies can make defensive emplacements, yes. However their faction is based on a defensive playstyle, and you can not recieve a cheap engineer like unit to build wire, sandbags, mines, etc from the get go. 320 manpower for Sappers is not cheap at all. The Emplacement capabilities of the Tommies is a neccesity.

Now we can evaluate the Soviets. Their essential defensive building unit is cheap, always available, fragile but can create the basic needs of the army, similar to the US Engineers or the Wehrmacht Pioneers.

A couple other units can play a role in placing some defensives as well, particularlly Sturmovie and Tank Hunters AT mine. Doctrinally, the OBR becomes a viable option, Partisans can lay mines and nasty traps of their own, and Mechanics can lay down some basic defenses too.

[Trooper425]

Spread your wisdom oh wise defencer.

Play nice.

I was. I was totally honest, I want to hear his tips, 'cause that's how I play.

[Otto Halfhand]

Hey Sommarkatze, - no I think strelky and NI and engineers/mechanics should have defencing build orders; cs, Gds -no; TH, AT mines are fine. Conscripts no way in hell.  Strafniye - undecided but probably no.

@ Cat Fishy: Sorry my posts are confusing. They are, I know. I never learned to write properly.  In answer to your question I think all players regardless of faction should be aware and familiar with defencing possibilities. It is not necessary to use it. It is necessary to be able to counter it. Ask your self this question. If you were playing Wehr and your resource production dropped to nil, would you think of activating Manpower Blitz? no answer required.

Another guestion for you-all. Since v1.6 came out how many times have you equipped an Ingenery Squad with mine sweepers? Since I have been "playing" EF I can remember only one time when the AI laid a mine. Flammers for my one builder. All others go Stormovie.

@trooper425: I knew what you meant.

@ Cranial, hi guy: Your viewpoint is always appreciated. Particularly so as regards Amis, CW and RMC -when they show up again. All players should be aware of the capabilities of every faction. I blindside myself too often because I stomp against Sovs not mixed teams. To review your observations:

• Amis rifles can build outposts? defencing.
• PE right on the nut. Unfortunately vCOH too.
• Wehr: small squads and Wehr benefit from the cover defencing can provide. Same argument for PE applies.
• CW: touche.
• Soviets: You missed one that workhorse of the Red army, NI =360 MP sandbag and barbed wire defencing ability. I think Strelky should have it too.
• Easy to forget Mechanics have defencing.
• I missed one: Partizans lay mines?

The topic I would like to address next is channelling enemy movement. THis will take a little while because I need to write it, review it and rewrite it. Don't worry Catfishy It will still end up confusing.

[Pac-Fish]

No problem ^^. Don't worry your English is fine .

I think maybe Strelky can get defensive options with FTML. It wouldn't be so bad TBH. Currently you only get the ability to get 3 additional rifles for 50 muni (not worth it IMO) and an ability that makes you less suppressible IIRC (I could be wrong). So giving Strelky the ability to make sandbags in that ability wouldn't be so bad. Would certainly make FTML more appealing.

[Otto Halfhand]

I store my conscript knowledge from version to version in a thread called "a subtly Stupid Question" It is current. Feel free to correct any
misconceptions I have. IIRC vet2 gives concripts suppression reduction.

Adding defencing abilities to strelky and/or other units as a perk when "Not one Step Back" is an idea than would make that 1CP expenditure usefull to me.

Cranial I forgot. When you referred to OBR I assumed you were thinking Sim City. The range for OBR is 50? What do you think about a ranging circle showing at time of initial build for OBR and Firebase?

[GodlikeDennis]

I think the OBR range in 1.6 is 70-80 or something? Pretty much mortar range.

Minesweepers have already been changed for the next patch to not require the Sturmovie research.

FTML is one of the strongest unlocks Soviets have. It breaks and makes you totally immune to suppression for the duration. The rifle upgrade for conscripts adds 3 rifles AND increases the accuracy, which means quite a large improvement.

Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

[Pac-Fish]

FTML is one of the strongest unlocks Soviets have. It breaks and makes you totally immune to suppression for the duration. The rifle upgrade for conscripts adds 3 rifles AND increases the accuracy, which means quite a large improvement.

The accuracy part I did not know. TY for sharing that

[Cranialwizard]

Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

Well, this basically. The Soviets are more of an aggressive faction and not a defensive. Yes, aggressive factions can build defenses but not to the extent of the Wehrmacht or British.

[Otto Halfhand]

 

1. I think the OBR range in 1.6 is 70-80 or something? Pretty much mortar range.

Minesweepers have already been changed for the next patch to not require the Sturmovie research.

2. FTML is one of the strongest unlocks Soviets have. It breaks and makes you totally immune to suppression for the duration. The rifle upgrade for conscripts adds 3 rifles AND increases the accuracy, which means quite a large improvement.

3. Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

4.Well, this basically. The Soviets are more of an aggressive faction and not a defensive. Yes, aggressive factions can build defenses but not to the extent of the Wehrmacht or British.

• Thanx, I think a fixed howitzer base should outrange a mobile mortar squad. This sounds like a balance problem to me. If you agree I can post there.
• Amen to that.
• All the emboldened passages are highly subjective opinions. You are not talking about the Sov Faction here. You are telling people how to play; or perhaps how you play this faction. Your reccommendations on play should not be ignored. But they represent only one opinion as to how the faction should be developed. It is important to recognize the difference.
• Basically the Soviets are an Infantry oriented faction. VCOH is oriented to aggressive play. VCOH factions all contain both offense and defense oriented features. Entire Doctrines reflecting defensive play styles are available to those who choose to use them. It can be argued that CW faction is oriented to defensive play.

I view Defencing as passive/aggressive play style that forces the enemy to come to you  on your terms and allows you to use his Strengths against him. Jujitsu and Fencing use these techniques extensively. Why should players of EF be forced,(compelled)? to do otherwise? EN GARDE!

[GodlikeDennis]

Certainly you can play them however you want but it doesn't change the fact that Soviets aren't designed to be played very defensively, hence the lack of sandbags on Strelky or no MGs for example. They also have to compete against Axis endgame which is a race against time. It is optimal to play them aggressively, the same as US.

The bolded portion is not opinion but fact. Many faction mechanics reflect the design that Soviets are aggressors and Wehr the defenders, as many games work out. That isn't to say that in each game there isn't defending and attacking by both sides but Wehr is happier when on the defense and Soviets have a lot of design features to make them need to be offensive.

Some examples; high upkeep, low reinforce, lots of SMGs, nades, artillery options, heavy mortars, satchel charges, weaker endgame than Axis etc.