v1.6 What's your Soviet order of Battle?

[Cranialwizard]

Breakthrough and Propaganda are the two most used doctrines. I don't see what the problem is with Breakthrough. Urban has issues because it is a reliant Anti-Infantry doctrine primarily with not too many late game benefits against tanks.

[Otto Halfhand]

I see less utility in breakthrough w/o 85 TRs and have not had the opportunity to truly evaluate the change.

Urban is more than an infantry doctrine. The LHS is well organized and the "For the Motherland" a good value At 3CP. I would like to see the Partizan cost set at the same price as NI.

On several maps 2 Partizans can interdict almost all Axis resource production for Three minutes or more at a time! It takes a good bit of micro but even if both squads are eliminated In three minutes you get more than enough MP to infiltrate 2 more squads. And the disruption 90-95% map control for 3 mins repeatable every 9 minutes or so. If and when players see it, I predict headaches for the balancers.

I believe this might be what your referring to as issues?

[GodlikeDennis]

LHS urban is decent but doesn't give you any AT tools. It's best when you're facing 2 MG42s or more and bunkers. The KV-2 is also great against entrenched positions and blobs.

RHS is a little worse. Partisans come quite late at 3cps considering their health. Flare is decent but not overtly powerful or direct. It's best used with mortars and partisans (because they can cloak up to an enemy, activate a damage boost and then destroy at close range). Sniper Ace is a very useful addition to your forces but doesn't have the same battlefield impact as other end-tree options.

In both cases, lots of non-doc AT is needed.

[Pac-Fish]

On several maps 2 Partizans can interdict almost all Axis resource production for Three minutes or more at a time! It takes a good bit of micro but even if both squads are eliminated In three minutes you get more than enough MP to infiltrate 2 more squads. And the disruption 90-95% map control for 3 mins repeatable every 9 minutes or so. If and when players see it, I predict headaches for the balancers.

Ehhhhh what are you talking about? Cause I don't think I've ever seen this, nor do I think it works the way it should on paper . I don't really think you can disrupt that much with 2 partisan squads. Expecting both to simply die is not a good mentality IMO. And if you are burning 600mp every 2 minutes, you will be very behind in comparison to your enemy. You will lack both main line units and effective AT. And lets say your partisians do survive every time you do this. Then you will be stuck with like, what, 6 partisans squads all half wounded and no AT to stop a vehicle inbound?

[Killar]

I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

I wonder if your balance concerns in this and other threads are viewed from the comp stompers point of view too.

[Otto Halfhand]

Killar. I mostly play vs AI, I have only two fully functional fingers on my dominant hand, and competitive micro is pretty much beyond my means. I have played wargames for over 45 years and have a pretty good grasp  on pvp plays styles. I try in these posts to take the pvp POV, for the mods sake. I know that sometimes this leads to erroneous or silly commentary. I am willing to bear the odium of the PvP crowd. PvP is the way this mod must go. "If life gives you lemons , make Daiquiris"

The Legend: During the 100 years War the English and Welsh Longbowmen chewed up the French. You need the index and middle fingers to handle the 160# draw of the longbow; which was made from Yew. The French retaliated by cutting the index finger of captured bowmen. Longbowmen would taunt the French by raising middle and index finger and shouting Pluck Yew. Of course maimed bowmen could only flip them the bird.... Surprisingly the tradition is still popular today in a slightly modified form.

EF Must work  for PvP. but don't forget the Compstompers. If you have a problem with this check out my new Avatar.

[Otto Halfhand]

On several maps 2 Partizans can interdict almost all Axis resource production for ....

Ehhhhh what are you talking about? Cause I don't think I've ever seen this, nor do I think it works the way it should on paper . I don't really think you can disrupt that much with 2 partisan squads. Expecting both to simply die is not a good mentality IMO. And if you are burning 600mp every 2 minutes, you will be very behind in comparison to your enemy. You will lack both main line units and effective AT. And lets say your partisians do survive every time you do this. Then you will be stuck with like, what, 6 partisans squads all half wounded and no AT to stop a vehicle inbound?

Take some time and look at the tactical maps for ALL of the EF maps, On many of them you will see 2 Strategic points, (not necessarily SPs) that if decapped will severely impact your opponents resource production for the time it takes to move to the location and recap. It is easier to do it with PE Scorched Earth Doctrine but that is hit and run. It can also be done with PE LW Doctrine Falls.
The Partizans and to a lesser extent the Sniper Ace can do it one better. For best effect decap/cap both points at the same time and Hit the axis blobs with all available artillery.

If you can interdict ~90% of the map from enemy control  for 2-3 minutes the only effective counter is for Wehr to use their manpower blitz.  If you can coordinate it with the Soviet (or Scorched Earth) artillery strike on the blob. the ambush is much more effective. High level players know this shit! GLD clued me into using the "Flare Drop", something I hadn't thought about.
As far as wasting one or two Partizans: I don't like that either. But if you interdict the enemies MP gain rate for 2-3 minutes it doesn't matter. Your differential MP gain rate will pay for 2 more Partizans you can immediately infiltrate into the area.

Regrettably  Killar I am overdependent on AI play. It definitely  colors my thinking. I am thinking PvP when I make these posts and it is your job to set me straight when I go astray. A job the Balancing team does well and repeatedly. In this particular case I believe I am right on.

[stealthattack1]

he is right about disrupting resources. this is a viable tactic with partisans if there are buildings close by.

 @ Otto, whether you have only 2 fully functional fingers on your dominant had or not, i don't think that has to limit you. of course it gives you a disadvantage, but keep trying. for example, i pretty much typed  this whole message with four fingers. why? i don't know how to type. but i still typed it. so keep trying, and don't give up.

[Otto Halfhand]

I ain't giving up. Compstomps are not  PVP; but they are better than being poked in the eye with a stick. If I manage get my digits back I'd love to start climbing the ladders. THere is no place to go but up. Having to deal with high level players is a real sap on the ego. I am not slamming anyone. They are correct .... much of the time. And a good crew on the whole. I considered IDda'Yid    when I decided to change my Username. I am a little bit Jewish,  (sorta like being a little pregnant, I guess); but I don't want to offend those of a more thin skinned nature. Thank you for your encouragement.

BTW: you are right on about the buildings and infiltration. Infiltration doesn't work with the pre-placed Ruins, which you see a lot of on EF maps.

[Blackbishop]

I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

I wonder if your balance concerns in this and other threads are viewed from the comp stompers point of view too.

What I read in this post, is that if you are a "comp stomper" you lose credibility when posting regardless if what you post is right or wrong.

I have noticed this behavior being running free all this time, but this elitism should stop.

If it can be demonstrated to be a valid issue, you should care less were it comes from. Everyone should stop treating Skirmish players(aka "Compstompers") as second class citizens. While it is true that we balance EF through PvP, players that like to play vs AI still can post their concerns as well.

Does this means we should listen Compstompers for applying balance changes? Don't tell me you think we should ignore them . You should listen both players' feedback, PvP & Compstompers and then assimilate what is going to be good for the mod and just discard what not. If it is assigned priority to PvP feedback, so be it but that doesn't mean the rest of the players are just ignored because aren't PvP.

[Otto Halfhand]

+1 Bishop

[Killar]

I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

I wonder if your balance concerns in this and other threads are viewed from the comp stompers point of view too.

What I read in this post, is that if you are a "comp stomper" you lose credibility when posting regardless if what you post is right or wrong.

I have noticed this behavior being running free all this time, but this elitism should stop.

If it can be demonstrated to be a valid issue, you should care less were it comes from. Everyone should stop treating Skirmish players(aka "Compstompers") as second class citizens. While it is true that we balance EF through PvP, players that like to play vs AI still can post their concerns as well.

Does this means we should listen Compstompers for applying balance changes? Don't tell me you think we should ignore them . You should listen both players' feedback, PvP & Compstompers and then assimilate what is going to be good for the mod and just discard what not. If it is assigned priority to PvP feedback, so be it but that doesn't mean the rest of the players are just ignored because aren't PvP.

You are doing me wrong here. I never told anybody in this particular post and others that they are second class citizens. In fact the only 2 times i said something about compstompers are in this thread and as a response to Otto.
Blaming me about things other balancers may have said is not fair.

Just to be clear here: There aren´t 2 kind of balance. This game is made for competetive gameplay which means that no army is stronger than the other (at least thats how it should be). You can win regardless which faction you choose.
Playing against AI just switches a human player with a computer one. As the computer isn´t as smart as a human player the game would be shortly over.
To be more challenging the computer player gets more ressources and is harder to kill compared to a human counterpart.

So if you have not much experience in playing competetive games then you will look at things only from a comp stompers point of view. If my enemy axis AI has suddenly 3 stugs because of the high ressources (instead should have at this time in the game only 1) and i call in a t34/76 then i clearly get the impression that i need a better cannon to beat the spam.

But these changes if granted will affect the normal games too, which will get unbalanced.

Thats why i asked because i wasn´t sure if he had issues while playing against AI or human.

The best thing to post a balance issue is to post a replay and tell at what time in the game it happened.

I play against computer too but only to test particular units against each other to see how they perform.

Ofc players that like to play against computer can post their concerns. However insisting to be right if they are not is another thing.

[Blackbishop]

Oh, maybe you misunderstood my post, my answer for your quote was only this:

What I read in this post, is that if you are a "comp stomper" you lose credibility when posting regardless if what you post is right or wrong.

The next part is just a general comment, not pointed towards any specific user. Yes, there is only one balance and it is achieved by PvP, but you can never know when the skirmish feedback can help you to detect an issue.

Supposing 99.9% of the "comp stompers" opinions are not useful to balance, there is still a "0.01" chance that the input is valid, meaning that we cannot ditch every opinion that comes from these discussions. As long as the chance is not zero, we cannot just discard them.

I apologize if I make you felt I directed that wall of post to you(which wasn't intended).

[Raider217]

+1 Bishop

[Pac-Fish]

Just out of curiosity, what is the recharge time of a Partisan squad . 30seconds? 45? And chances are your Partisan will get stopped before it can do effective dmg to you strat points. You might get 1 or 2 off out of all of this but IMO not that much more. I still stand firm on the belief that Partisans won't FULLY work the way Otto intends, although he is right about the fact they can harass well.