Russia vs. PE (2.6.0.1) a modest proposal

[Joshua9]

I've been having consistent problems as PE versus a specific infantry heavy Russian strategy.  It involves as its bread and butter, about 4 upgraded tank hunters, 4  sturm-ingenery squads, and of course the command squad, supported by the jumping off point of an outpost with medic truck combo.

The reason this combo is so difficult for me as PE in my opinion, is first, it is very very hard to take out an outpost that is supported and will eventually have an mg emplacement backing it up.  PE's infantry edge on Russia is fairly tenuous even in an all-out brawl once both sides start getting vet, coupled with abilities to disrupt blobs that russia has, like command squad arty and satchel charges.  Attacking a protected outpost is a much less ambiguous outcome, and mortar half-tracks don't help enough, and have to get close enough that they don't live long.  Against a different faction I might try to sneak in a goliath during a push, but the brutal range on the sturm-ingenery ensures that that isn't going to hit a damn thing, even if it isn't directly targeted in time.

One of the reasons this outpost is so impregnable is that any assault I'm likely to make on it will almost immediately be met with the push back of my enemy's full army, since they can all just be there at the click of a button.   I think that that click of the button should be much rarer.  I'd prefer a 3 minute cool-down.  I doubt this would have far reaching consequences against wehrmacht, and would allow PE, which has almost no standard artillery save the mortar ht, an opportunity to actually hit this hard-point with enough force to remove it. 

My other complaint is tank-hunter capping speed.   These guys can roam the map in packs of 4 getting behind vehicles, softening base defenses...etc.  If they get caught out, they are resilient enough to retreat in-tact unless I slow a squad, and am lucky enough to be in-between it and its retreat route with a sizable force, and this doesn't even take them off the battlefield.  It puts them at their outpost where they re-heal and re-man for 28 manpower.  The fact that these guys seem to cap so decently seems unnecessary, and only serves to help them play this attrition and pop-cap war that eventually always cripples me, while my infantry is being pushed off by the other tools at my enemy's disposal.  I would suggest having tank hunters cap at the speed of un-upgraded assault grens.

So yeah, these would be minor changes.  It's possible that the issue is more severe and that something should be done about the fact that sturm-ingenery cease to be glass cannons once the command squad gets vet, or how much less likely to perish tank hunters are after said upgrades. Or its possible that I'm just not using the right tools to get the job done, I just don't know what those tools would be.
 

[Killar]

Actually its the other way around. PE is far too strong against soviets. They are nearly defenseless against a early HT followed by a AC spam. PE grens can then be equipped with MP44.

Only thing soviet can do is spam sniper/atgun which is a boring gameplay (at least in the current patch)

[Joshua9]

window of ht hitting field before tank hunters is what, 45 seconds, a minute and a half tops?  I'd love to see that in practice.

AC's yes, are pretty good against Tank hunters, I'm just not sure how you're getting fast ac if your buying a half track.  its a fuel investment.  Your enemy should have ample time to have counters, and will because he's certain to be tailoring to anti-vehicle.

I've occasionally been able to cut my friend off with ift, but that window of effectiveness seems very short.  If you're building past t2 to fast t3 then you have one less unit on the field trying to choke russia off the map in that critical stage.  Are you base rushing with the ht?  stalling the building of t2?

Also, fast acs always come up in these conversations about pe vs russia, and I don't think that should be THE viable strategy.  Its utility may make the factions technically balanced, but if its a necessary tech path, its going to be a less flexible match-up.

Anyway, I allow that you might be right.  You guys are obviously playing some games...I'd love to see some of those PE vs russia replays.  It would help alot

[Cranialwizard]

I think this is a learn to play issue...It seems more that your teching is not coupled right. The Outpost issues have been somewhat address though changes are being looked for.

[Joshua9]

that feels like a bit of a mixed message... 'ltp" or "we're looking at outposts for a possible solution."

I know that strelky are supposed to be the mainstay of russian infantry.  Do you guys get in games against a heavy sturm-ingenery force supported by tank hunters and all other t2 options available very often?  If one comes up, I beg of you, post the replay.  It would really help.  LearingTP is a lot easier when there is some model to follow.

[TheVolskinator]

This doesn't look like a L2p issue. It sounds like older patches of vcoh where brit players would throw a CPT into a bren and then officer-retreat a piat blob into the enemy base. Being able to instantly retreat to the Medic truck has helped my sorry ass out in numerous games vs. the AI--which is sadly my basis for my input, but I have a shit ton of experience playing 1v1s and games in EiRR mod in teamgames--check my CoH profile under the same name as my forum name here if you doubt that. It seems like you can counter harrasment and cutoff efforts by autoretreating to your medic truck, a novelty that the Americans lack and the British rarely use with their Capt retreat ability. It also means that these TH blobs can roam the map and retreat to a foreward point to defend that half of the map or reinforce without running all the way back to base--no other faction can enjoy such a luxury; again, brit players almost never risk a CPT in such a fashion. I think this is a fair proposal, as even the best-microed AC will get shat on on by a blob of 4+ TH squads. In such numbers, TH can blow the crap out of enemy troops, and any handheld AT in large numbers becomes frightningly effective AI; try it out sometime with 5+ shreck or dual shreck squads--whole squads will go chunky in one volley.

[jdogg]

Actually its the other way around. PE is far too strong against soviets. They are nearly defenseless against a early HT followed by a AC spam. PE grens can then be equipped with MP44.

Only thing soviet can do is spam sniper/atgun which is a boring gameplay (at least in the current patch)

I agree but that is the point of panzer ELITE to be better at everything in order to make of for the inherent lack of numbers where as even the elite units of the soviets do need numbers to get the most benefit out of using them. Partially the reason i use the KV tanks instead of the T34 because they dont rely on numbers to the degree that the rest of the soviet army relies on.

[Pac-Fish]

Although I disagree with the idea that TH + CS blobs>PG blobs coupled with IHTs and ACs, I have never actually experienced this sort of game so I can't honestly say whether this is an effective tactic. Although IMO Sturmovie squads are OP so a group of them would be annoying I guess .

[GodlikeDennis]

It might help for you to post the replay so we can tell you specifically what you did wrong. TH blobs are terrible against infantry. Unlike shreks, they don't come anywhere close to gibbing men in one shot if they happen to get a lucky hit. Sturmovie are powerful but are expensive and drain your economy a lot. MP44s beat them soundly and G43 slow stops them dead. ACs are very strong against THs and Sturms as long as you use it right and kite properly. As Killar mentioned, a fast HT is very strong. At most, he'll have 1-2 unupgraded THs (2 means your inf should overrun him) and these won't be very effective anyway until upgraded.

About the medic truck, we've already made it so you can't retreat to med truck or heal if the truck is cut off or in enemy territory. We're also looking at the healing rate. Outpost has also been changed slightly.

[Joshua9]

Right, I actually am not suggesting that tank hunters are good against infantry...they have been nerfed impressively, and fast sturmovie can be handled in isolated situations with both slow and flame grenades...they burn fast, and they are fragile in-spite of their firepower, though I am concerned about their survivability post defensive vet on the command squad...they just seem to stop dying at some point

 and yes, acs do a number on tank hunters and sturmmovie though I find myself having to build more than two of them, and at guns do eventually hit the field, protected by the other units, not to mention the risk of hitting at mines.

My primary concern was about the op and the medic truck together and how that affects the hit and run strength of these units which deal damage at a good distance,chewing upa squad in seconds and then running away(though not far), and then rinsing and repeating, owning the attrition war, something that is geatly due to the fact that once an op is put down, its just plain likely to stay there, for want of a good way of dislodging it without greater sacrifice than reward. 

 I still think that a 90 second cooldown for the retreat to truck for this fast moving infantry is more than they need, and is too effective, so I still advocate a longer delay in the reuse of that ability, though it is very good to hear that you have changed the outpost slightly, and that you may lower the truck heal, as alternative solutions.

my secondary concern stemmed from the first, and simply had to do with russia's ability to force a retreat and then cap up the map, something that can not be dealt with tit-for-tat due to that damn medic truck.  The tank hunters are probably just about as resiliant as they should be.  Most of the russian army dies really easily so i'm content with tank hunters requiring a little more punishment to kill.  I just don't understand their capping rate, given their role and the number of units russia will be fielding.  It compounds a problem that i've listed, that their resiliance makes it so that they don't have to be babysat by the rest of the blob.  PE infantry has to stay tight because when they get cought out, they get mauled in a split second to the russian wave...a wave that moves fast and can be on two different sides of the map within 10 seconds...its really fucking hard to predict.

Anyway, it seems like something is being addressed that directly impacts my area of complaint, so I'll definitely be looking forward to the next patch.

 

[donthateme]

Hey Joshua,

Sturmmovie: Yes, Sturmmovie are very strong. But they are not easy to get due to their enormous high (ammo-) costs. They also have a high upkeep/mun-drain. If your enemy can build up such an expensive Sturmmovie blobb and is able to vet him up, you defnitely did something wrong. If your enemy has Sturmmovie, you can be sure that he wont have resources to get vehicles/tanks. So get some ACs or tanks (P4).

Also, fast acs always come up in these conversations about pe vs russia, and I don't think that should be THE viable strategy.  Its utility may make the factions technically balanced, but if its a necessary tech path, its going to be a less flexible match-up.

In vCoH, PE needs also vehicles to win. Its not possible to spam and blobb just grenadiers (at least I never saw it). Thats the thing with PE, they need combined arms to beat the enemy, thats why PE is a very complex faction to play. So getting vehicles is indeed a necesary tech path, cause they dont have snipers and MGs.

Sturmmovie will get small nerfs next patch anyways.

ZiS-medic-truck: We know that the retreat to the medic-truck (in combination with an outpost) is still very strong, although ZiS got several huge nerfs last patch. ZiS now has PE-Halftrack-armor instead of Wehr-Halftrack-armor (so its very easy to kill, even by PE-Grens), ZiS cant heal in not connected territory and (starting-) retreat-cooldowns (to ZiS and from HQ to ZiS back) are also highered. ZiS will get nerfed next patch again, so you have to wait.

Tankhunters: Im not sure what your problem is here (the capping-power lol?). IMO tankhunters suck enormously and they are not designed to be used as main At/fight alone. They got big nerfed last patch: they have now Inf-armor type, so take a lot dmg even by small-firearms and at the same time, they suck vs enemy inf (no firepower). They are only designed to support your ATG against light/medium flanking vehicles, not more. If your enemy builds more of them, he wont have propper AI-units, so you have to stop building vehicles and get some AI like Stg44 (even normal Grens without any upgraded weapons are enough to deal with TH). Thats not specific PE-USSR problem, thats the game: reacting to what the enemy builds. If your enemy builds a lot AT, you should build some AI and stop building vehicles.

The problem is, that we play our games mostly in Sandbox/beta-version, so we cant give you any replays you were able to watch. In general, the whole balance-team saw that PE is slightly too strong vs USSR (if played correctly), so it seems that you definetly are doing something wrong. In normal situations, the PE-player should have absolut map-dominance in early-mid-game. The trick is being very aggressive right from beginning on and push the enemy off from field, cause soviet player has nothing to stop you (only lousy conscripts and CS). Maybe you just play against way better players? Please post some 1v1-replays of yours of PE-USSR match up, so we can help you and give advice.

Btw: You can watch the cast of sublimes. In the game Snugz vs Darcreaver you can see a PE-USSR-match up for example. Just check the replay-section, there might also be some PE vs USSR-games. I will check my replays later and will see if there are any PE-USSR-games, then I can send you them via PM if you want.

Regards.

[stealthattack1]

argh. some of this stuff is disappointing. zis medic truck seems like its being nerfed to the point of having to stay in-base to be effective. oh well. no more FHQ for soviets.

sturmovie are being nerfed, which also  is dissapointing, because i thought they already had fuel upkeep.

i agree with PE being SLIGHTLY OP vs soviets (early game only, then tanks come into play)  I think this is mainly because its putting a vehicle reliant faction against a infantry reliant one.

other than that guys, if its imbalanced, i understand changing units, even if it is disappointing. Keep up the good work!

[Joshua9]

thanks for the responses,

thanks for that detailed breakdown donthateme.

The funny part is I often do get map dominance early, sometimes keeping my enemy off of his fuel for the first 5 minutes of the game.


again the issue for me is that I cannot push on an outpost, which you guys seem to be mercifully addressing, so apparently you agree there is some degree of imbalance here.    My thoughts on the capping speed of the tank hunters was just a less aggressive way to deal with the problem I'm having than the approach you are taking, so no, its not a big deal. 

As to survivability though, what are the stats on tank hunters?  They have infantry armor?  These 4 guys definitely seem to take more punishment than most of the other russian troops, excluding guards, so maybe the difference is in hit-points?  I can't be crazy, that seems pretty obvious game after game.  but let me know if i'm crazy.  Also how much of a bonus do these guys and sturmovie get in defense from both defensive vet and passive vet?  That vet comes easy, so it should be considered when talking about their survivability...which, let me be clear, I don't think is a problem.  I am however shocked that you guys don't think these guys are a good unit.  They may be balanced now, but they are not simply a stop-gap.

I'd love to see some replays involving PE and russia, so yes please PM me if you get up to it, thanks.

[Blackbishop]

They have infantry armour and 320 HP (80HP each one) and their vet bonus are received accuracy modifiers at vet1, extra member at vet2(+80HP + reinforce cost) and more damage at vet3.

[Pac-Fish]

argh. some of this stuff is disappointing. zis medic truck seems like its being nerfed to the point of having to stay in-base to be effective. oh well. no more FHQ for soviets.

sturmovie are being nerfed, which also  is dissapointing, because i thought they already had fuel upkeep.

I dont think the Med Truck has been touched in 1.6 . MAybe Im wrong. Also Sturmovie doesn't have fuel upkeep