Soviet Openings are too Weak

[bopokippo]

So basically, there a few things I am mainly trying to outline here. If you would like to respectfully disagree, then by all means do so, but in a clean and respectful manner. So 1. is the lack of general diverse openings for the soviets. Wehr, even with just a Wehrmacht Quarters can build 4 different units right off the bat allowing for huge combinations and they can "skip" tiers (e.g., go straight to pumas after wehr quarters). PE can choose between 3 options in the beginning. Logistic, Kampfgruppe, or defensive operations and incendiary nades into the eventual logistic or kampfgruppe. After getting a logistic or kampfgruppe (which are CHEAP structures), they can choose to build another reasonably cheap structure, the support or jager command. Both the support and jager, while requiring an upgrade to unlock certain units, both have two good and useful things right off the bat. Americans can start with rax, then go to WSC, fast BARs, fast motor pool, WSC--Rax--Tank Depot, etc. Brits are kind of linear in a sense, but nonetheless, they have 3 useful units from the starting command truck and can choose to do a wide variety of things with their infantry sections and bren carriers( vickers mmgs, emplacement turtling, get sappers for more turtling, Stuarts), and all cost reasonable amounts of fuel.

For the soviets, the only economical thing is a Red Army Mustering Tent first, then a command squad as soon as it finishes and maybe a conscript squad. Conscripts are really lack-luster in the core infantry role, so as one holds the line with them, they must save up for the fuel required in a support barracks upgrade. Then, for 35 fuel and I believe 120 manpower, you get TWO units to build. Basically, in early-mid game situations, I find you kind of get stuck with 2 support units to bolster a force of strelky whereas Americans can get WSC for 15 fuel and have 3 support units and PE can get infantry and mortar halftracks as well as, with upgrades, tankbusters and advanced repair AND field craft. A logistic gives muni halftrack, scout car, and vampire, all of which (especially the muni for mine laying) have good uses for the structural cost of 20 FUEL. Now, basically, to stand your ground, (at least when I played), I found out that I needed to get Red Banner Strelky ASAP and get DP-28s so there's some more fuel used for Strelky upgrades. Then, another side point. The ZiS support gun (as evidenced by another topic) costs more than the American AT gun, but does less damage and even when upgraded for a hefty fuel cost is still just below even with it and, although the Hull-Down can be situationally useful, the cost of the ZiS support gun and an upgrade necessitated for that hull-down ability for me does not outweigh the benefits. With 290 manpower, it should do slightly less damage than the m1 57mm and have the hull-down with a very cheap upgrade. The cloaked PaK 38s are a heck of a lot better if you ask me.

Then come the Tank-Hunters. They are virtually useless without men-against tanks (yet another fuel drain) as their mosins do pitiful damage and the PTRD has an extremely low shot:damage ratio and even though it fires fast, it has low damage and a severe lack of penetrating power against tanks. There is no bazooka or schrek type infantry for the soviets which makes sense because they never had such weapons, but the stopgap for a powerful AT infantry force that can deal damage to things like panthers and tigers without the need to spam AT grenades leaves something to be desired in tank-hunters. Even against the rear, a tiger deflected about 7 PTRD shots before blowing up (Naval Infantry PTRDs).

Now, with the BASE tank hall, you are spending (IIRC) 200 manpower and 55 fuel for nothing. Just for the possibility to get an upgrade. Both upgrades are fuel heavy (yet another huge fuel drain) and the units that come out aren't exactly fuel cheap either. The "light" tankovy is 55 fuel for some units that, by the time they come out (T-90, T-70) are anachronisms. The SU-76 is good, but the T-90 is just a slower Puma that has trouble kiting and responding to threats as well as escaping from them. The T-70 fits a light AT role and its decent at that but as always, by the time a T-70 is out, the enemy can easily have StuGs or tons of schreks. Its fragility makes me wonder about the investment of the Light-Tankovy. If it could come a little earlier, maybe it would work.

Now, the Heavy Tankkovy is hugely fuel consumptive (combined with the base 55 fuel of the tank hall) with another 80 FUEL and even more without a support barracks upgrade (tack on another 25 fuel without it but really you should get the support barracks upgrade so just add 35 fuel) and all that fuel spent just to be able to buy an 80 fuel unit. The 85mm gun upgrade is 60 fuel and it makes the cost of the newer tanks extremely expensive. And, T-34s and KV-1s aren't exactly shermans or Panzer IVs when it comes to mowing infantry and aren't nearly as accurate as one may expect. The closest thing that comes to this in relative fuel needs is the Americans but Shermans and M8s really have a great "shock" value when they hit the field because they are great against infantry and light vehicles with the added fact that they are very mobile. The only way I've been able to hold my own as Soviet Union is with the fastest possible (as said before) Red Banner Strelky to give myself some decent footing against Panzer Grenadiers with G43s and Grenadiers or Volks with MP40s. Then I desperately try to hold fuel points for support barracks upgrades and then, I try a light-tankkovy after saving loads of fuel only to have my t-70 or t-90 be practically useless to the large amounts of fielded AT by the time they arrive.

TLDR: Too much fuel for teching and the tech path is too linear as the penalties and requirements of many things basically dictate
 Red Army Mustering Tent------------Soviet Support Barracks----------------Tank Hall

Leading to predictable/stale play. The options branch out later on, but initially it feels repetitive and easy to counter.



EDIT:

This is all I'm going to put forth right now, Red Army Mustering Tent shouldn't cost 35 fuel, it should cost around 20ish. I understand that the 35 starting fuel and 35 fuel cost of the Red Army Mustering Tent is to maybe allow a support barracks first build but I find that it leaves you vulnerable (very) until you can get out Sturmovie or the additional fuel for a Red Army Mustering Tent in which, an enemy can exploit that timing window where you have no core infantry (strelky). In high resource games, the immediate Strelky, Command Squad, and Sniper combo is too good, so I think that the Red Army mustering Tent should cost 20 fuel, allowing for a choice between molotovs (which ties up conscript production a lot early game) or saving a little bit more for a delayed mortar or sniper. Also, I think soviets should start with 20 munitions, 0 seems a bit low for me. Late game I think they are fine, but too often for me, I get pushed around early game so my late game has no momentum to pick back up,.

[stealthattack1]

like you mentioned earlier, i respect fully disagree. yes, you do have to build the mustering tent, but youre wrong, you can skip the support barracks. also, the brits teching order is un-negotiable, because of their captains and stuff. also, the heavy tech requirements are not too heavy. +, if the soviets are balanced,(which i belive they are(good job to the balance team)) why do we care about fuel costs?

[Cranialwizard]

I think you're the one whom is thinking too linear. Are you playing a computer match? This is what it sounds like.

You can build either the support barracks or the red army mustering tent first. So you can take Ingys, Conscripts, and CS, or Ingy, TH/Snipers.

It's similar with US or Brits. (Rifles + Engys or Infantry + LT)


You are certainly welcome to rely on Conscripts with Molotovs or Sturmovie Ingys in order to skip T2 in lieu for Light Tankovy for an armored rush.

I think your main problem is that you're looking at the whole thing as one giant linear equation. As PE you typically would not build T1 then T2 then T3 then T4 unless you are raping your opponent. The same is true for most factions except brits which are a whole different story.

Typically the soviet gameplay should be relying on heavy T2 support with heavier variants of infantry or a T3 rush for light armor and a backtech for elite infantry. There are tons of ways the soviet teching process would go and the horizon expands with armory upgrades. You could skip backteching for Sturmovie which are very powerful as assault infantry.

Also, version tag or hammer of doom.

[bopokippo]

Ok I played against "Trannyhunterx" and yes, I understand fully that PE would never do T1-T2-T3-T4.

I'll try what you said for Soviets and see how it turns out next time I play.

[stealthattack1]

its fun. i always regret when i dont field some Sturmovie injenery's.

[Cranialwizard]

Ok I played against "Trannyhunterx" and yes, I understand fully that PE would never do T1-T2-T3-T4.

I'll try what you said for Soviets and see how it turns out next time I play.

I see. Good to see pvp.

Try a sniper start. 2 Ingys, build SSB, tech to snipers. This works great against PE and in team games. Grasp the measly 25 fuel for sturmovie and op a muni point and you've got a badass main fighting force. Then you can choose a doctrine (Do you want tank support before your tank hall? If so go BT. Are you in need of AT infantry? Go prop)

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Ok I played against "Trannyhunterx" and yes, I understand fully that PE would never do T1-T2-T3-T4.

I'll try what you said for Soviets and see how it turns out next time I play.

I see. Good to see pvp.

Try a sniper start. 2 Ingys, build SSB, tech to snipers. This works great against PE and in team games. Grasp the measly 25 fuel for stir movie and op a mini point and you've got a badass main fighting force. Then you can choose a doctrine (Do you want tank support before your tank hall? If so go BT. Are you in need of AT infantry? Go prop)

Very powerful buildorder indeed.

[Pac-Fish]

Just to put my two thought. You really only have 2 feasible options with SU. Ingineery spam is too weak IMO and even with micro and green cover they're still pretty weak so scratch that. And who gets TH early on, especially versus Wehr? You get murdered .

So really your only 2 options early on are snipers or Conscripts. But unless your sniper micro is good then you probably cant pull that off and even then, bikes and SCs can hunt you down (IDK maybe you can mine the bike which I have it but still  )

[bopokippo]

Just to put my two thought. You really only have 2 feasible options with SU. Ingineery spam is too weak IMO and even with micro and green cover they're still pretty weak so scratch that. And who gets TH early on, especially versus Wehr? You get murdered .

So really your only 2 options early on are snipers or Conscripts. But unless your sniper micro is good then you probably cant pull that off and even then, bikes and SCs can hunt you down (IDK maybe you can mine the bike which I have it but still  )

agreed. Sniper openings can be powerful I guess with the sturmovie followup, but what else is there?

[stealthattack1]

support barracks starts work best against PE, or team games.

[bopokippo]

so... there wouldn't happen to be any good anti-wehr strats around, would there?

BTW, what infantry type are guards? Heroic? Soldier? Elite?

[GodlikeDennis]

Guards have elite armour.

[Pac-Fish]

For a while you'll be effective but you lack capping power and are vunerable to vehicles . AC and SC can detect reasonably well and IHT can hunt down snipers

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

so... there wouldn't happen to be any good anti-wehr strats around, would there?

BTW, what infantry type are guards? Heroic? Soldier? Elite?

Vs Wehr it all comes down to how well you flank and how well you use your Command Squad. Use him to outflank mg42 and use conscripts for throwing molotovs if needed. Later on you should rely on guards/rbs strelky and snipers.

[bopokippo]

and btw, with that sniper opening into sturmovie, you have to pay excess 35 fuel to back tech to the Red Army Mustering Tent to get the Tank Hall transiation so.... kind of much to ask. The Tank hall is also ridiculously high for its fuel costs and the light tankkovy upgrade should cost considerably less fuel as should the heavy tankkovy (by a slighter margin) because of that Support Barracks penalty (which really kills diversity of a Red Army Musterting Tent--->tank hall strategy).