Soviet Openings are too Weak

[Killar]

Its a trap!!

The enemy thinks you are going fast vehicles and will build atguns and schrecks. Instead you build more infantry and snipers and win. However you should have atgun ready because wehr most likely will pop out a stuh.

[Chancellor]

Sturmovie start, cosncript spam, early vehicles, sniper start (for the tough ones), RBS, HM (which can come early and is devestating on langres), strong TH (laying at mines), ...

WHats HM stand for

And doesn't conscript spam usually lead to fast vehicles anyways? I mean its not like you're going to buy 4-5 conscripts just to tech normally.

The opponent will watch you.  Normally, Wehr players will get a Gren with a shreck as a precaution regardless of whether you have vehicles coming, but some guys refuse to buy a PAK until they hear the distinct Soviet tank sound.  As Wehr, around the time light vehicles hit the game, move your camera into the fog of war to where his base area is and start trying to hear for that shit.

[jojorabbit]

Am making some tests. Could anyone write me more of these ?

Yep. If you're good at microing snipers you can try 2 engineries, build ssb - sniper upgrade, 2 snipers. Then Armoury - Sturmovie upgrade and upgrade 2-3 Sturmovies, works best if you or your mate can OP a medium/high ammo point.
This strategy is mainly for 2on2 ++

Where would you use this? On small maps?
What about 1v1?
What units/buildings you can build/produce with soviets in 5 mins max? -> I know it depends on map/fuel income but lets say medium map with medium res.

Thanks a lot.

[Otto Halfhand]

It occurs to me that one of the reasons many of us consider Sov openings too weak,(read as predictable) is that there are only Three Tech buildings. (I exclude the armory as it is only a switching station that allows you to upgrade counters not build them). I understand Ostheer will be the same.

It is not really a matter of balancing resources. It takes about the same number of resources to get a PzIVd unlocked as it does for a T34.

The imbalance occurs because it is easier to anticipate what the Sovs will do next: PE:Sov  (4!/3!)/(3!/2!)= 4/3 or 33% easier to predict Sov's next move.

[stealthattack1]

not always. for example, the soviets can often skip t2 to go conscript heavy and then straight to tank hall. also, if you think soviets are predictable, take a look at  the Brits.

[Otto Halfhand]

Stealth the Combinations expressed by the factorials are independent of where you start in the Tech tree. the 4/3 ratio still is applicable. As you progress farther into the Teching War the probabilities of predicting whats next will change until all teching is done but the non- Sov player will have the advantage.

The only way to overcome this disadvantage is through the use of early recon to see what the enemy has built. We are talking about the first 7 minutes of the game here. During that period Axis factions have the only vehicular recon that has the speed to get down the map.

When dealing with the Brits it is not a matter of what they are going to build so much as where they will build from.

[stealthattack1]

so your saying its easy to predict what unit specifically will be built first? not overall teching?

[Pac-Fish]

Its kinda true. Soviets basically have two options early game (1st 7min like Otto said): Lots of conscripts supported by CS or Sniper spam supported by (eventually) Sturmovie. Those are really their only two effective options early on. Of course later on there will be different stuff but we are talking really early.

ANd Brits are generally considered broken, RMC or not so they don't count

[stealthattack1]

ehh, i disagree that brits are broken, but i do see your point.

[Cranialwizard]

ehh, i disagree that brits are broken, but i do see your point.

The British aren't "Broken", as some may say, however they offer a more static gameplay and very redundant. They are not a flexible faction like the others, and follow the same layout game after game after game.

Team games are the worst against Brits. Thank god Resource Sharing was removed.

[Pac-Fish]

IMO they are ok. Its just their vet system and their multitude of emplacements irks me

[Otto Halfhand]

Its kinda true. Soviets basically have two options early game (1st 7min like Otto said): Lots of conscripts supported by CS or Sniper spam supported by (eventually) Sturmovie. Those are really their only two effective options early on. Of course later on there will be different stuff but we are talking really early...

• If I see conscripts (T1 start), I will pop out 2MGs or as PE use a T1/T3 start with SCs and early ACs.
• If I see several ings but no conscripts I may assume a T2a start. THs are expected next.  I may expect an early T4 to confirm this as 107mm and Stormovie are a likely possibility. It is quite likely the first infantry I will see will be Strelky and quite possibly pairs of Strelky and TH. In this case T2b will probably come before T3. I would rush an MG or PG/St44s.
• If I see several ings but no conscripts and no THs I will assume a 2 sniper start; IE T2b. This will probably not help much because the snipers will probably make their presence known first. But I would rush a mortar. For PE a T2/T3 start.
• If I see conscripts but no CS, I assume a Fast Vehicle Start because 350 MP is better spent on a second T70 then a CS. The Sovs can get out 2 T70s in about seven minutes.

so your saying its easy to predict what unit specifically will be built first? not overall teching?

I didn't say it is easy. And I think you have it backwards.

Thank god Resource Sharing was removed.

Cranial would you care to elaborate on this?

[Pac-Fish]

I think when a Brit truck locked down, the US player also gained the resource bonus. Thus when a Brit truck parked its ass on a medium muni point for example, the US player would also be making extra muni.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Its kinda true. Soviets basically have two options early game (1st 7min like Otto said): Lots of conscripts supported by CS or Sniper spam supported by (eventually) Sturmovie. Those are really their only two effective options early on. Of course later on there will be different stuff but we are talking really early...

• If I see conscripts (T1 start), I will pop out 2MGs or as PE use a T1/T3 start with SCs and early ACs.
• If I see several ings but no conscripts I may assume a T2a start. THs are expected next.  I may expect an early T4 to confirm this as 107mm and Stormovie are a likely possibility. It is quite likely the first infantry I will see will be Strelky and quite possibly pairs of Strelky and TH. In this case T2b will probably come before T3. I would rush an MG or PG/St44s.
• If I see several ings but no conscripts and no THs I will assume a 2 sniper start; IE T2b. This will probably not help much because the snipers will probably make their presence known first. But I would rush a mortar. For PE a T2/T3 start.
• If I see conscripts but no CS, I assume a Fast Vehicle Start because 350 MP is better spent on a second T70 then a CS. The Sovs can get out 2 T70s in about seven minutes.

so your saying its easy to predict what unit specifically will be built first? not overall teching?

I didn't say it is easy. And I think you have it backwards.

Thank god Resource Sharing was removed.

Cranial would you care to elaborate on this?

There are not only conscript + cs or sturmovie + sniper spam as viable options.
You can play:

1x ingenery -> CS -> 4x Conscript + molotovs -> t3 + navals
2x ingenery -> CS -> 2x Conscript -> fast Strelky + Sniper/mortar
2x ingenery -> t2 -> 2x Sniper -> ths/strelky/sturmovies
2x ingenery -> t2 -> 2x ths -> stumovies

Also there are several variations possible. and even if you only have 3 buildings you still have several techs to research which completely differ in terms of strategies.
Panzer Hall built? Ok, but what's coming out of it? t70, t90? Or a t34?
t1 t2 t3 built? Hmm... T34/85? Or even IS 2? You can just guess what's coming. When you play vs Wehr and you see that t3 is built you can be almost 100% sure that a Puma/StuG is coming next. Same with USA, when you can see t3 being built you also can be sure that a M8 or T17 will hit the field.

If you look at it this way soviets are actually less predictable than US or Wehr.

[GodlikeDennis]

Another possible early opening is playing without a CS. You can get 5 cons on the field and this massive harassment power lets you rush vehicles pretty fast, which don't benefit from CS global vet anyway. It's not really viable to go for T2 without a CS though.