is2 too expensive and comes out too late

[mrxplek]

my concern is its faster to build a panther,actually you can get a vet2 panther faster then an is2.
suppose the wehr player skips t3 and goes directly to t4.
i have divided the panther fuel cost as follows
skirmish phase 35 fuel
krieg barracks 25 fuel
assault phase 50 fuel
battle phase 50 fuel
panzer command 50 fuel
building a panther  110 fuel.
the wehr palyer gets an initial fuel of 20
15 fuel is spent on wher quarters
wher player will have an extra 5 fuel.
so the total is 320-5(initial extra)= 315 fuel.



i have divided for is2 fuel cost below
tankhall 55 fuel
light tankovy upgrade 55 fuel
heavy tankovy upgrade 80 fuel
close range support 35 fuel
medium range support 35 fuel
is2 135 fuel
total cost of is2 will be 395 fuel.
this is ideal condition where you don't spend any fuel in armoury.
the difference is almost 395-315=80 fuel


you might think that instead we should go for t-34,t-90,t-70 but the strategy of skipping t3 is to hold you're line with grenadiers and paks.if blitz doc then storms.you can get shreks or mp44 or mg42 upgrade to hold out against infantry and tanks and then go full offensive with t4 tanks and kch against infantry.
suppose we get tank hunter and zis upgrade then we will waste 80 fuel.he can get vets for both his infantry and tanks and if he sees tank hunters and zis he will use his infantry to beat them and get infantry vet.if we get infantry upgrades he can use the panther,p4s to kill infantry. we can not roll out is2  cause we have to get upgrades for infantry like sterlky and guards which is another 100 fuel.there is no way to roll out an is2.

t-34/76 and t-34/85 are not as good as is2 against panther i have checked it t-34/76 can reduce the panther's health by a fraction in a one  on one battle.
t-34/85 is better it can reduce it to half health in a one on one battle.

is2 is good against a panther one on one,but it wont fare well against a vet 2 panther.as mentioned the wehr player will have grenadiers with shreks and paks as backup.with these he can easily beat an is2 and base rush.


i suggest that the armoury upgrades be changed with tank hunters and zis2 requiring manpower+fuel.
shock guards and red banner requiring manpower+munitions.

i love to play as Russians but for some reason most of the time they seem to suffer from a resource shortage (fuel and munitions).

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

You can't just take all the fuel together and say only because the total full count is more the IS-2 is getting out latter. You have to understand that a game IS NOT LINEAR! Not everybody has the same ressource income and the same capping power. You also have to think about the players mapcontrol, the more fuel points you have the faster you'll get the IS-2 out, and soviet has a lot of capping power in the beginng so it's ok that they need to pay more for the IS-2 in the end.

[mrxplek]

but in most maps,there are usually five fuel sectors with one being 16 fuel other being 6 fuel.now if he controls two of them and ops one of them because he has extra manpower skipping t2.there is an addition of 10 fuel.the point in skipping t3 is to create a defensive line.im not saying about building bunkers or wires.you can use a mobile force to defend like a force of grenadiers,paks and volks.bikes against ingery.the situation is aggravated in 2vs2.where one player can go t4.while other keeps pressure using all tier units.

[SnappingTurtle]

I'm not sure of the exact prices for Soviet tech so correct me if I'm wrong, but to unlock the IS-2 you need the light and heavy tankovy upgrades, right? And to unlock the T-34/85 you need the heavy tankovy upgrade and the 85mm gun upgrade from the armoury. I think the 85mm gun upgrade is more expensive than the light tankovy upgrade, so it's actually cheaper to unlock IS-2s than T-34/85s. That seems about right.

I got to admit I haven't used the IS-2. When I find myself with that much fuel I just get T-34/85s. And if your Wehrmacht opponent is able to rush to vehicles as well as buying vet then he has a hell of a lot of fuel points and you shouldn't be trying to get your own vehicles anyway.

is2 is good against a panther one on one,but it wont fare well against a vet 2 panther.as mentioned the wehr player will have grenadiers with shreks and paks as backup.with these he can easily beat an is2 and base rush.

And this doesn't mean anything. The vet 2 panther supported by grenadiers with schreks and paks will defeat an IS-2? So what, are you saying it shouldn't? Why is the IS-2 unsupported?

[Killar]

IS2 is similar to a panther battle group of PE. You have to tech all tiers to get it. Thats how it is designed.

Other than that the patch comes soon and you have to rethink or abandon your suggestion anyways after that.

[mrxplek]

I'm not sure of the exact prices for Soviet tech so correct me if I'm wrong, but to unlock the IS-2 you need the light and heavy tankovy upgrades, right? And to unlock the T-34/85 you need the heavy tankovy upgrade and the 85mm gun upgrade from the armoury. I think the 85mm gun upgrade is more expensive than the light tankovy upgrade, so it's actually cheaper to unlock IS-2s than T-34/85s. That seems about right.

I got to admit I haven't used the IS-2. When I find myself with that much fuel I just get T-34/85s. And if your Wehrmacht opponent is able to rush to vehicles as well as buying vet then he has a hell of a lot of fuel points and you shouldn't be trying to get your own vehicles anyway.

is2 is good against a panther one on one,but it wont fare well against a vet 2 panther.as mentioned the wehr player will have grenadiers with shreks and paks as backup.with these he can easily beat an is2 and base rush.

And this doesn't mean anything. The vet 2 panther supported by grenadiers with schreks and paks will defeat an IS-2? So what, are you saying it shouldn't? Why is the IS-2 unsupported?

if he ops  one or more fuel sectors.he will get a resource bonus.since there op costs 200 manpower,whereas russian op is 250. if you spam t-34s he can use panthers agaisnt them.i know that is2 should be supported by infantry but they are better with there upgrades.guards are good but by that time he will have kch.



im not emphasizing on my suggestion.i just want the modders to consider such a scenario.

[Killar]

Question: If you see a enemy tank do you go for atgun or a tank to counter it?

[mrxplek]

you go for a at gun.but you need the zis and tank hunter upgrades to beat a panther.you will have to sacrifice on sterleky upgrades and shock guard upgrade.but with his  infantry of grens he can get vet for them and easily kill your at gun and tank hunter.

[SnappingTurtle]

How can the Wehrmact possibly get T1, T2, vet and a panther before you can get some appropriate counters? Not to mention all the paks, grens with shrecks, and kch this guy has.

[GodlikeDennis]

Vet isn't free you know. Vet 2 is more expensive than RBS or MAT and vet won't save him against Snipers, mortars and guards - all of these options are available to you if you are rushing IS-2. Remember that rushing IS-2 is not a favourable strat. The game should've gone on for at least 20min already before you even think of IS-2s. The counter to Panthers with gren support are T-34/85s, snipers and AT guns. IS-2 is more for being agressive against a lategame, heavily entrenched position with Paks where the T-34s aren't much good. They are also better against Tigers and other endgame heavy tanks.

Remember that if you rush an IS-2, you have every Soviet unit buildable. Use the correct counters.

[mrxplek]

this is a strategy i would follow as a wehr player.
get two pio to cap and build wehr quarters.one volks to cap and fight infantry,mg42 or volks will be second squad.if i don't have enough fuel another volks or a bike.
now i go t2.get a mortor or a pak depending on the scenario next get grenadiers.i can get one or two of them depending on the ops i have built.if i take blitz doctrine i can get storms.now shrek upgrades if i see a t-90s,t-70s.if i see infantry mg42.
next i go for panzer command panther if i see t-34s.now in this scenario Russian player has to get at upgrades as he wont have enough resources to build an is2.in this case either kch or vetrancy for grenadiers.he would get red banner sterelky to beat grenadiers.so he will be short of fuel to get guards upgrades.
if i see mass russian infantry of  p4s or ostwind.since i have infantry to support it against tank hunters and at gun.in this scenario the Russian player would've spent a lot on his infantry upgrades munitions wise.and he might not have enough to upgrade for at guns or tank hunters.

i haven't tried is2 against entrenched positions or tigers i will check it. if it fares well in these scenarios then yeah the game is pretty balanced.

[SnappingTurtle]

It seems the scenario you're describing is one where you outplay your opponent anyway. If you build an early OP you're going to be low on fighting units and I don't see how you could not get pushed off unless you were just better than the other guy anyway. Even if you do hold an OP the Soviets will have more of the map than you and will be able to tech as freely as you.

In other words, your strat requires a heavy and consistent flow of fuel to you, which you should not be getting if the Soviet player is doing what he should.

in this case either kch or vetrancy for grenadiers.he would get red banner sterelky to beat grenadiers.so he will be short of fuel to get guards upgrades.

I just can't believe you could get T4 units before the Soviet player could get RBS, unless he went T3/T4 first in which case you shouldn't have enough fuel for T4. Also, why would the soviet player get guards/shock guards if he already has RBS?

and he might not have enough to upgrade for at guns or tank hunters.

They don't have to be upgraded to be useful. One regular AT gun can turn back a P4.

I could be wrong but it seems to me the scenario you describe requires everything to be going your way anyway, in which case it doesn't matter what the Soviet player does.

[stealthattack1]

if this situation actually has happend to you, post a replay. other than that, i will just consider it as all theoretical. but then again, its not me you have to convince, its GLD.

[GodlikeDennis]

If you want to save on fuel but still get powerful assault infantry, I would suggest Sturmovie. Be aware that you won't be able to spam them once you access them (like Strelky) because they are expensive and have several anti-spam measures built in. However, they are good in a vehicle rush situation because they can repair and are good at clearing out AT guns. You can also go prop for Navals and Red Tide, which can supplement your vehicle rush needs.

[bopokippo]

irrevlevant but I think t-90 is just as expensive but weaker than a puma