[1.510] Sublime Balance Concerns

[Chancellor]

[nofollow]

Zerstorer is cockblocking Snug and I from the balance team, so I cannot see the current balance changes for the next patch.  I will post all of Sublime's balance concerns for 1.510 here instead.  I will update this original post as new concerns arise as I play.

If you decide to post here, please READ THE WHOLE THING and think over what you are going to write, especially if you are a newbie player.  I don't want to see some irrelevant compstomp comments.  When you post, please quote the specific balance concern you are going to address or reply to.

FACTION BALANCE:

Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Reasoning: Although they lose more men, the PE player needs to kill 3-4 conscripts per every lost PG to win the manpower war, and this is not happening at all.  If USSR decides to get a 4th conscript, PE will lose map control very quickly.  Like USA, Soviets also cap faster than PGs, and the tank hunters that come later actually add to the rifle fire, making the pressure on the PGs too much to handle.
Solution: There needs to be some sort of slight nerf to CS, conscript, and TH rifles versus PGs.

Concern 2) In 2v2 early game, dual Soviets are at a severe disadvantage to both Wehr and PE.
Reasoning Versus dual Wehr, multiple MGs is guaranteed to lock down the high fuel, no matter how many conscripts come.  Even if you flank, it will not be enough, since MGs change directions, and any player worth their salt will have volks guarding.  Versus dual PE, PG spam just dominates the conscripts.  I know I just said PGs were underpowered versus CS and conscripts in 1v1, but apparently in 2v2 where there are large numbers of the squads, this is how it is.  In 2v2s, dual USA is valid because one player goes riflemen, while another can go WSC for snipers and MGs.  Soviets do not have this.
Solution: Make both barracks and the support center cost fuel, but also give the Soviets starting fuel, but only enough to build either the barracks or the support center.  Make the sniper and mortar available right after the support center is built (no upgrade needed).  Put the TH and AT gun together and make them cost an "Anti-tank Upgrade" that costs 2x the current cost of one of the support upgrades, and also make it reduce conscript reenforce cost by 4.

Concern 3) The KV2 is somewhat overpowered.
Reasoning: This is supposed to be an anti-blobbing tank like the StuH, so I understand it is supposed to do major damage to blobs.  However, it even does major damage to individual squads that aren't even blobbed together.  It 1-hit killed an entire volks squad once.  It is also very immune to panzershrecks, which I can kind of understand, since its an anti-infantry tool.  However it is also very resilient to PAK rounds too.  With such a strong gun and strong armor, its too much IMO.
Solution: Make its gun equal to the StuH's, OR make its armor more vulnerable to panzershrecks and PAK shots.

Concern 4) Katyushas are slightly too cost-efficient.
Reasoning: IIRC katyushas cost roughly 1/2 the manpower of a callipope.  The manpower price of the katyushas were based off of the number of rockets each shot.  However, katyushas have much higher damage per rocket and also less scatter.  Admittedly, katyushas have less armor and health and range than a callipope, but a good player will protect them well anyways, so that disadvantage is mainly negated.
Solution: Make the katyusha's manpower price in between 1/2 and 3/4 of a callipope's.

Concern 5) Tank Riders should be vulnerable to small arms fire.
Reasoning: They are currently as bad as kangaroos: 4 men shooting out and are invulnerable when they are on the vehicle.  Tank riders are more expensive than kangaroos, but they also come with guards, and the vehicle has a 76mm cannon attached to it.
Solution: Make the riding guards vulnerable to small arms fire.

Concern 6) Soviet snipers shoot too fast in respect to the other faction snipers.
Reasoning: USA snipers shoot slightly slower than Wehr snipers, since USA has more men per squad and have generally lower reenforce cost per man than Axis squads.  The USSR sniper currently shoots as fast as the USA sniper but the USSR has even more men per squad and generally even lower reenforce cost per man.
Solution: Make the USSR sniper shoot 30% slower than the USA sniper, but let it shoot faster by 15% at vet 1, and another 15% at vet 2, in addition to its current vet bonuses.

Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.
Reasoning: They cost more than a single gren squad, so I understand if they can beat a vet 0 gren squad.  But even at vet 3, grens will still handily lose to partisans.  PGs also get pushed around.
Solution: Please check the combat power of the partisans.


Finally, to end this post, I would like to thank my friends at the balance team: GodlikeDennis, Killar, CranialWizard, and of course, the Sublime-in-training Apeman.      I feel the current balance team has totally turned this mod around under GodlikeDennis's leadership, and has moved EF one giant step forward into a credible and competitive mod.  This post is in no way meant to insult the balance team's efforts; only to point out minor balance problems that were probably unintended or missed.  Thank you for reading.

[cephalos]

well, I don't enjoy playing against unbalanced enemies.... so I guess you're right, Yauz. The fact is that most people don't feel the difference so hard ( or it's just me?), so they don't see it. Balance team made a huge progress in 1.5, however some things stilll need fixing.

+1 for fuel cost of Support Barracks. Only this, Kampkraft centre, Soviet Barracks and bloody armoury don't need fuel to build.

And moderators, don't lock this thread please. Some serious concerns are debated here.

[Killar]

Zerstorer is cockblocking Snug and I from the balance team, so I cannot see the current balance changes for the next patch.  I will post all of Sublime's balance concerns for 1.510 here instead.

Whaaaat? Sungz too? I know you and Z had some personal differences but i didn´t know about Snugz

Because these issues you point out belong to internal discussion.

Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.

Thats because Conscripts have a sqaud health of 295 but PE grens only 165 (3 men). In addition Conscripts will keep their firepower until they loose more than 5 men while the dps of grens instantly drops when they loose only 1 man.

I would say more about it but its not meant for official eyes :\

Concern 2) In 2v2 early game, dual Soviets are at a severe disadvantage to both Wehr and PE.

Dammit can´t write here but would have much to say about it.

Soviets have a disadvantage a few minutes in the game because of the 35 fuel they need to get better weapons thats true.

So you suggest to skip the 35 fuel but make a price for the whole building like wehr has. Adding starting fuel costs i suggested too but for anpther reason.

Its a good idea and i will follow it

Concern 3) The KV2 is somewhat overpowered.

KV2 was again toned down. Its meant to be more powerful than Stuh. It costs more too.
Paks and schrecks are the worst enemys for this thing already. It has churchill armour and nearly every pak shot penetrates. A gren sqaud shooting from the rear and a pak from the front and this thing is gone. However we can adjust the Health always.

Concern 4) Katyushas are slightly too cost-efficient.

Already in discussion

Concern 5) Tank Riders should be vulnerable to small arms fire.

Thats the problem. They use the PE HT sitting. Means its like they sit in a HT and can be sniped, damaged by explosions but can´t hurt by small arms fire. I dunno if its possible to realize this.

Concern 6) Soviet snipers shoot too fast in respect to the other faction snipers.

Interestingly The soviet sniper minimum cooldown is lower with 1 point than US ones but all other stats are the same lol. We will look into that.

Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.

Partis have 2 PPSH and one MP40 and 1 Mosin and 1 Kar98. What makes them so powerful are the SMG´s. Grens should fight them from the distance where they have the advantage (4kar98 > 2 rifles)
However i understand that it isn´t always possible because partis come from the back and strike mostly from uncloaking.

We will have a look into that.


Regards

[Pac-Fish]

Just out of curiousity can concern # 5 be changed in any way or is it more of a tech issue

[Joshua9]

Of course I agree with point #1(actually I wouldn't adjust CS against pgs though, since it can be focus fired quite nicely also, and slowed for the kill[by the way, is this going to change to reflect the retail ability?]), and katyushas piss me off to no end, for their cost and effectiveness.  I just think the prop war doctrine dominates right now, and its mostly because of these munitions free artillery pieces, of which there will be at least 2 out, impossible to get to without wading through tank hunters, and keeping all the munitions free to start dropping the a-bombs of GOW every time the ability becomes available.  Kats also just hammer tanks.  even the jagtiger gets mauled by these rockets, which just keep coming.

I haven't played any 2v2's.  If there is a problem, i'm not sure of the solution.  How much fuel would it take to get out any vehicle deterrent under this plan? Seems like a long road to anything that could effectively counter an ac, unless I'm misunderstanding the cost you're proposing.  I also just like the way the support units are split up right now. 

I do think that the major should be unlocked whether the barracks or the support building are built though, to allow for at least theoretical(if not practical) flexibility, but yeah, that won't do anything to address the problem you're asserting.

[Jeff 'Robotnik' W.]

@ KV2

I think it should be switched with street fighting, that way it comes out later and its power is worth the cost

@yauz, also im kinda curiopus on your opinion on the OBR field gun, because it seems that half the people like it while others say its useless

[donthateme]

@ KV2

I think it should be switched with street fighting, that way it comes out later and its power is worth the cost

+++ thats what i suggested too.... KV2 comes too early imo... as its so heavy armored, its a real challenge to conter it in that phase of game...

[Chancellor]

@ KV2

I think it should be switched with street fighting, that way it comes out later and its power is worth the cost

@yauz, also im kinda curiopus on your opinion on the OBR field gun, because it seems that half the people like it while others say its useless

The KV being switched with Street Fighting is a good idea.  However, if that happens, Street Fighting will come earlier, and I think the Sturmovies should only be allowed 1 flamerthrower instead of two.  Putting two flamethrowers on assault infantry was too much, even when Street Fighting was the last ability on the doctrine.  Its like giving KCH two flamethrowers lol


As for the OBR, it really depends on who likes it and who thinks its useless.  A bad player who doesn't play their units right might start thinking their units are useless for example.  Personally I think OBR is fine versus Wehr, but its OP versus PE.
Why?  Because the OBR gun is specifically strong against infantry and light vehicles.  Wehr's infantry are cheaper per man, so when an OBR kills a grenadier, its only 37 reenforce cost, plus the body might be recovered by a medic.  Against PE, its 45 manpower down the drain, guaranteed.  As for light vehicles, Wehr doesn't really have much in terms of light vehicles.  There's the halftrack, but it is not central to T2 play.  The Puma is central to T3 play, but the StuG from the same building can be used to kill the OBR.  PE on the other hand, lives and dies by their light vehicles.  The OBR pretty much negates all of their vehicles.  The only thing PE has that can kill the OBR are shrecks, which are sometimes not teched to, dual Panthers, which are extremely late game and mostly a luxury in 1v1s, and Mortar HT, which takes an extremely long time to get the job done, but by then Tank Hunters or PTDRs are most likely to chase it away.

[Pac-Fish]

I haven't tried it yet but can the 76mm gun move or is it stationary?  If its such a problem maybe some nerfing is in order . Im just saying this due to what Yauz said.

[Chancellor]

I haven't tried it yet but can the 76mm gun move or is it stationary?  If its such a problem maybe some nerfing is in order . Im just saying this due to what Yauz said.

Its a stationary but it has pretty long range.  Its also an emplacement.

[Pac-Fish]

If its like the 105 howitzer then I can see how it may be problematic on small maps. It will just keep firing and blow shit up

[donthateme]

However, if that happens, Street Fighting will come earlier, and I think the Sturmovies should only be allowed 1 flamerthrower instead of two.  Putting two flamethrowers on assault infantry was too much, even when Street Fighting was the last ability on the doctrine.  Its like giving KCH two flamethrowers lol

double flames are a unique doc ability, like storms with blitz-doc can get double schrecks/stg44 or pe-grens get double-schreck when tank-doc is chosen (what comes also very late by CP btw)... i dont see there any problem... of course double flames are very strong, and they should be imo, like storms are very strong vs tanks/inf too (depends on what weopons are given - stg/schreck)... 

Personally I think OBR is fine versus Wehr, but its OP versus PE.

i agree that its very powerfull vs pe, even maybe OP... a brit 40mm bofors is devastating against light/medium pe vehicles too, but its not that hard to conter, since the range of 40mm is limited... the only prob for contering OBR as pe is the range, which is enormous... 17pounder has enormous range too (not that much like OBR) but is only usefull against heavy tanks and very bad against inf. btw: before ppl are saying "u cant compare 40mm-bofors with OBR" - yes i know, just wanted to show the problem of OBRs range

[Pac-Fish]

I think I have an idea on how to make Tank riders damageable when riding. Unless a solution is already out .

You know when a tank or AC shoots a buildng for a while a big gapping hole in the window appears, leaving soldiers more vunerable to gunfire. Maybe we could use the stats of a building w/o windows or missing wall for the T-34. Or would this not work . Im not tech savy .

[Killar]

I think I have an idea on how to make Tank riders damageable when riding. Unless a solution is already out .

Thx but a solution is already worked on.

These points of concerns should be internal not public. A shame that you got kicked.

[Pauly3]

I agree on the Partisans
i have just played a 1v1 vs a friend (we are pretty even) and my 2 partisan squads fucked up 2 vet 3 grens with one DP-28 each (he took them from my dead strelkys) I charged their yellow cover....
I think urban doc in general is pretty near-OP
sturmovie engeniries just rape EVERYTHING, they burn 3 squads in like 5 secs.
PE is just at a huge disadvantage vs soviets atm
i am not as good as yauz so i cant make awesome suggestions
but i am with him on most points!