1.501 Russia VS. PE

[Joshua9]

I haven't played this match-up enough to be 100% certain about the following assertions,

but I'm going to throw it out there now and maybe get some tips on how to handle what I think are a couple overly effective tools at turning PE units into kibble. 

I've found the Wehr vs Russia matchup to be pretty well balanced now( I think prop war just brings far too much constant artillery to the table when coupled with a single howitzer emplacement, and that those rocket trucks should at the very least do less damage to vetted tanks than they do, but other than that I think things have really arrived), so I'm not sure what the solution should be to my following issues...

Tank Hunters - are fine in their earliest incarnation.   After the upgrade they are just straight stupid against everything but PE infantry, and panzer IV's with skirts AS WELL AS mgs to prevent getting mobbed while kiting.  Nothing else even needs to be mobbed. 

Stuff just evaporates from the other side of the map when a few upgraded tank hunters get on scene.  They kill fast, at their most extreme range, making light vehicles simply a liability.   This really makes T34's effective, because they will be quite punishing to PE infantry that can't keep marders or AT halftracks alive due to passing target practice. 

Add in guards and everythying else is just gravy.  Guards just do not die, and with their long range rifles, they murder PE infantry.   This makes infantry exchanges seem shockingly unbalanced to me.  It is not like Pe infantry is cheap. 

To get 360 manpower 4 man PE squad slaughtered in moments, and to not be able to return the favor, or to be able to bring any counter to the table because it will combust within firing radius of tank hunters, and to have precious few artillery options to compensate for losing the duke-it-out game(that is by all right's PE's in its other match-ups) leaves a pretty simple road map to game set match for Russia, as far as I can tell. 

Ooh...I will admit to not thinking about using goliaths...that could work so long as there is no command squad in play, but an expensive fireworks display otherwise. 

Is there something I'm missing?

[Pac-Fish]

How about an AC ktting TH. Or a mass of G43 PG. MH used to thin out blob? Panther BG Maybe some Hetzers or Jagdpanzer IV to fight T-34? Just throwing stuff out there

[Chancellor]

@ Joshua9

PE's biggest strength is the ability to wage asymmetrical warfare.  To win, exploit this to the max.

vs Tank Hunters Alone:
Don't fight his Tank Hunters with light vehicles / armored cars.  Instead, kite and use them as bait.  When the tank hunters charge, run the vehicles behind your G43 PGs.  The tank hunters will either retreat or get torn up.  Note that "baiting" does not mean you have to pull your ACs so far back that they cannot do any damage.  You can still kite and do damage to the Tank Hunters, just make sure they have that layer of PG support in front of them.

vs Guards Alone:
Likewise, don't fight Guards or other elite infantry with PGs.  Now is the time to be aggressive with those light vehicles.  As strong as Guards are against PGs, they are near useless vs anything with wheels that is kiting.

vs Tank Hunter / Guard combo:
In the case your enemy blobs both TH and Guards, then such a massive amount of infantry warrants the purchase of a mortar halftrack.  Use the bait trick mentioned and let his blob come charge your G43s.  Time your mortar barrages and rip them apart.

Additional Tips:
Don't buy the 360 manpower PGs btw...they are overpriced manpower-wise and not worth the free Mp44s they come with.  Suck it up and buy G43s instead.  Also, Guards do seem strong vs PGs, but with each level of vet, PGs can increasingly stand toe-to-toe with them.  This is due to the fact that PG vet is better than Guard vet.

If you want more examples, you can download my 1.51 replaypack from the Replays Section.  It has a few PE vs USSR games.

[GodlikeDennis]

Yauz' advice is solid. Also, while Wehr goliaths are now detectable, PE ones still can't be. The CS detection won't be an issue.

[Joshua9]

I have to concur that the advice is good, but the practice is so much more complicated.  trying to micro all those things and to  find that pitch perfect range(which I'm still skeptical even exists) with your light vehicles and trying to run away squads that are perishing right and left at the same exact time, while russia simply has to charge forward, or zigzag about, whatever tune he's singing in his head really, does not make for a balanced battle between opponents of equal skill. 

I know from wehr mortars just how effective mortars can be against Russian infantry, so I should definitely try to get those into the mix to stave off  the guard/tank hunter debacle, though I start getting particularly nervous about those light vehicles...maybe it will help me soften the russian infantry and keep them running home, giving me more map control before russia hits that critical mass. 

Given that conscripts just start dissapearing from the game, and yield crap vet(understdandably), and given just how ridiculously hard it is to put down a single guard in a squad(I was focus firing a crawling squad with 3 g43's for 30 seconds, at inbetween close and medium range, and managed to kill 2 before I got run off by the 2 survivors and a backup), I think guards should definitely yield more experience.

I will definitely check out those replays, thanks for pointing me to them.

[Pac-Fish]

I agree. Guard are extremely hard to kill with other infantry. I had like 2-3 vet 3 grens with shreck and mg and they couldn't kill it. Reinforcements came and I had to run .

Try using snipers. Hoever I think Guards take several sniper hits to kill like KCH

[Chancellor]

I will definitely check out those replays, thanks for pointing me to them.

np.  You can find my replaypack for this current patch here:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=6750.0 [nofollow]

Hopefully you can see how my advice is actually executed in-game better when watching those replays.

EDIT: I just checked out those replays in the pack where I played as PE vs USSR, and it seems the games ended very fast, without much heavy Tank Hunter / Guard mob or end-game action.  Perhaps next time I'll post another replay pack where I play more games as PE vs USSR in the future.

[Joshua9]

I'm not really reassured by those 1v1's...first, nobody used tank hunters in any of them(although this certainly didn't prevent a couple of the games from handily going to the russian player)...which perplexes me given just how devastating they are to every vehicle on the field, and given that they just don't die fast enough to pe infantry to be any sort of liability when built against the wrong strat. 

after playing a bunch more games tonight, this just cannot be a balanced matchup currently. 


Aside from the occasional fast ac, 90 percent of my unit choices are worthless. Tank hunters simply make them combust, presumably by shooting mind bullets.  "Because they are the kwisatz haderach!"

It should not be that easy. 

[Killar]

Tank hunters changes for the next patch are already made.

[Pac-Fish]

Tank hunters changes for the next patch are already made.

Sooooo, they're being nerfed

[Killar]

Adjusted. no spoiler here 

[Pac-Fish]

Adjusted. no spoiler here 

Darn . So close and yet so far

[Joshua9]

That is good to hear.  I think their range is just too long.  It would be cool if they had a set up option, like an MG, that would give them that range but lock them in place though(I think modern combat is going to have a unit that works like this), but that's probably too much work to implement.

[Chancellor]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Tank Hunters tbh.  They're fairly expensive already, costing over a Grenadier squad.  I've yet to see them as OP    They just do what they are meant to do, and that is kill vehicles, and they can be kited and defeated by infantry.

Joshua9, I would like to play a friendly 1v1 with you and see you prove your point about these Tank Hunters being so OP.  PM me please.

[Killar]

Joshua9, I would like to play a friendly 1v1 with you and see you prove your point about these Tank Hunters being so OP.  PM me please.

Can any of you broadcast this?