Viktor Suvorov- Fact or Fiction

[neosdark]

Many of the forum goers are probably not even aware of the existance of this man, Viktor Suvorov, but in short he was a Spetznaz GRU agent who defected to Great Britain in 1978. He made a good name for himself, writing about his homeland's Special Operations (Spetznaz) and the GRU, but his most controversial book Icebreaker, makes a claim, that the Soviet Army was in fact preparing to attack Nazi Germany in 1941. While to many of people this sounds crazy and plain silly, he has in fact presented quite a few interesting and relevant facts;

1) The Soviet Army was on the border between Germany and the Soviet Union, similar to the German Wehrmacht, and more interestingly they were both doing the exact same thing on the opposite sides of the border, removing the Barbed Wire and mines separating the two countries, constructing small bunkers on their side of the Rivers that ran across the border.

2) The most numerous Soviet tank of the time was the BT-7 a tank that was designed as its Russian name suggest (Fast moving tank-7) to move quickly and exploit Breakthroughs. A more interesting feature of these tanks was the ability to remove the tank treads and turn the Bogeys into wheels. While this seems interesting and useful, the roads in the Soviet Union at the time were in horrid conditions and the only roads these types of wheeled tanks would be good for are the expansive Autobahn and other Western European Highway-type roads.

3)The Soviets tore down the Stalin Line, a gigantic Defensive Line running from the North to South of the Soviet Union. These gigantic bunkers were able to survive sieges for months if not years, by having large underground supply chains as well as hundreds of guns in mounted positions. The remains of a few of these bunkers were in fact used against the Germans in the last stages of the German preemptive offensive, to great effect.

4) Most of the Soviet army was either at the German-Soviet border under a guise of training maneuvers or heading towards the border in trains, which was why so many soldiers were fleeing from the border and many more not even aware of what had occurred, also the reason they were able to defend Moscow, because the Far Eastern Soviet forces were redirected before the German attack had begun giving them just enough time to arrive under Moscow. Most Soviet Airfields and Railroad Stations were also close to the front, which is why they were so easily and quickly destroyed in the first stages of the attack. The Germans captured so much fuel and munitions, that they could roll on until Moscow. Also this was where most of the Soviet SVT-40s were found and so quickly adapted for German use.

There are many more arguments that I could add, but i will not atm because i'm quite tired

All are welcome to say what they wish.

[Paciat]

No, Soviet Union wanted only peace.
 
 
 
 

Ive read that in summer 1941 Soviets were planning (deploying armored units and airforce) a second attack on Finland becouse they didnt achive all their objectives (Making Finland a puppet state, getting Petsamo mines) in the 1939-1940 war.
But Stalin didnt want a war with the IIIrd Reich till 1943.

[cephalos]

But Stalin didnt want a war with the IIIrd Reich till 1943.

you talked to him? 

I guess that Suvorov is quite right. Soviets were focused on expansion - the war with Germans was just the matter of time. More interesting is the fact that Soviets had 20.000 tanks along the border. And tank is mostly offensive weapon, not defensive. I believe Sovets were preparing for attack, but in spring 1942 or something like that. At this point they would have a huge tank reserves and produce a lot of aircraft.

[Tankbuster]

Neosdark, please add a few more points.

[Red_Stinger]

I wont extend on details, but Vladimir Suvorov (V. Rezun is his real name) dont have any serious fact to assert that the Soviet Union was going to attack Germany at this point.

Every specialist of the German-Soviet war (Glantz, Erickson, Gorodetsky and even Muller) contradict the Ice-breaker theory.
Goebbels was the first to invent it, to justify the invasion of the Soviet Union.

Stalin didnt wanted any provocation, and everyone apart Stalin in the Stavka knew that the Heer could attack at any time.

Stalin would have attacked maybe in 1944. The theory of a 2nd invasion of Finland is false also, for the same reason than the Ice-Breaker. Plus, the public opinion wasnt favourable to an other attack on this small country, and the Party knew it.

[Dann88]

In the "How the war began" of Ivan Bagramyan, he mentioned after the greetings between officers, they asked: "When will the war begin?".
While the Soviet builded a lot heavy bunkers, Stalin made a stupid decision, abandon def positions to counter-attack Germans and due to better maneuver of the Germans, most of the time, Soviets have to abandon AGAIN their fortified positions to reinforce the breached lines. (Did Viktor Suvorov mentioned about that?)
"Red tide" was actually propaganda, in truth, the Germans and Soviets have equal numbers in the begin but Germans have better arms and tatics. Most of the defensive part of the Soviets in the war, they even have to struggle when their number become smaller overtime, some of divisions and armies only live on paper after the suprising invasion. (Soviets not only lost munitions, fuels and weapons but also menpower in the start of the war)
So yes, Soviets actually planned to invade the Nazi but the Nazi acted faster. 2 stupid tyrants start a war and made a lot of people died for them.

[neosdark]

I wont extend on details, but Vladimir Suvorov (V. Rezun is his real name) dont have any serious fact to assert that the Soviet Union was going to attack Germany at this point.

Every specialist of the German-Soviet war (Glantz, Erickson, Gorodetsky and even Muller) contradict the Ice-breaker theory.
Goebbels was the first to invent it, to justify the invasion of the Soviet Union.

Stalin didnt wanted any provocation, and everyone apart Stalin in the Stavka knew that the Heer could attack at any time.

Stalin would have attacked maybe in 1944. The theory of a 2nd invasion of Finland is false also, for the same reason than the Ice-Breaker. Plus, the public opinion wasnt favourable to an other attack on this small country, and the Party knew it.

Hmm, I was hoping somebody would pop in and say that, Red Stinger, as a Armchair general, when would you deploy your forces to the border of your country and another country. To attack of course, am I not correct? Most tactical training exercises take place away from the Borders of other countries, otherwise we would have been training our soldiers who attacked Iraq in Saudi Arabia. 

1)The Soviet generals at the time (and this is in fact a very well known fact, don't need any documentation to prove this) didn't have maps of their own territory, they had maps of Poland, Lithuania, Eastern Prussia and even of the whole of Western Europe. Why would need such maps, unless you are planning to attack.

2) This one is a tad personal, so I apologize if I get a bit violent. My great-grandfather was a commisar in an Independent Special Sapper division (which about a year ago, my dad found was a special NKVD Border Division) He was recalled to service about 1 month before the German invasion for we called Переподгатовку or Extra Retraining.

Now this might seem weird. He was a Commisar so a Political leader, not an officer in the army, at the time (he was of course a part of the Revolution and according to Famliy legends even took part in the taking of the Зимний дворец or the Czar's winter Palace) He was supposed to be a Political Leader, not a military leader. So the question stands why do you need Political leaders at front, I can think of two reasons;

1) To inspire the soldiers and show them that all the classes are fighting along side them (which is great propaganda) or
2) To establish some sort of political presence where ever the army moves.

I think number 2 is more likely.

3) The lovely numbers, prove quite a bit, as Cephalos said, 20,000 tanks at the front is no laughing matter. But whats even more crazy is the number of Paratroopers Stalin had, 1,000,000 paratroopers. You don't train paratroopers unless you plan to attack. They are useless for Defensive maneuvers since they don't carry the same heavy weaponry as regular or heavy Infantry (your Standard pre-war Strelky squad was supposed to have 1 HMG per squad, and 2 LMGs per squad, and the rest of the men were to be armed with Rifles)

4) Guard squads you know them and love them, but where the hell did they come from. They certainly weren't in any of the Soviet pre-war records. Well the Guards divisions were formed of battle-hardened veterans, usually armed with the more intricate weaponry (PPD-40s, SVT40, AVS36 or AVS40, but where did they come from exactly. Well the first (1-4) where born as part of the Defense of Moscow during the part of the battle when the Soviets counter attacked called the Yelnya Offensive. Well that makes sense, but in 1943, 20 or so other divisions were formed all with the names Guard Rifle Divisions. Who where they? They were the Paratroopers (by that time renamed the Guard Airborne Divisions). I don't need any particular book to prove this, go on Wikipedia and type in Guards unit. Read the entire thing and you will find what i just said to be true. The majority of Guard units were in fact paratroopers (not all, i didn't say all)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_unit

@Stavka88- Yes, Suvorov does mention the Stalin line (I mentioned in the first post actually)

EDIT: Some more facts for your personal enjoyment:

1)There are photos of entire trains wagons filled to the top with munitions taken by the Germans. Look them up if you want.

2) The most powerful artillery piece on the Eastern Front was the Soviet 203mm Howitzer and the most numerous type of artillery piece on either side of the border was the Howitzer. As many generals and strategists know, Howitzer are designed to destroy fortifications and attack heavily fortified areas. Dunno why you would need over 600 shells per 203mm howitzer, but I assure you tha its not for sitting on ones ass

[Red_Stinger]

@neosdark

The communist doctrine heavily emphazised on the need to go to the offensive whenever you can; soviet forces were placed on the western border since the early 1930's to counter-attack an attack from the "capitalist devil". Even during the Cold War, there were a lot of soviet division in East Germany ready to attack the West within 3 hours of the declaration of war. The deployment you mentionned is due to the doctrine in use at that time in the Red Army.

1) I wasnt even aware of that fact 
But again, that could be linked to the offensive doctrine at that time.

2) During April and May 1941, Stalin reluctantly authorized a partial mobilisation of some unit on the border. Your great-grandfather may have been in one of these particular unit.

3) Ahhh, the numbers! Always helpful!
   - Of the 20000 tanks you mentionned, 3/4 of them were simply unable to move/fire, due to a lack of mechanics and supply. Most of them were just destroyed at their garrison point.
The Mechanised Corps were simply not able to fight a war.
   - 1 000 000 paratroopers; this one is pretty vicious: there was 1000000 men able to perform paradrop, not 1000000 able to fight like paratroopers. These were for the most part volunteers whom had a training related to paradrop, nothing more. And ANYWAY, Stalin didnt have enough planes to perform great scale paradroping. The few planes able to fly were used, well, for training.

4) I dont understand how its related to the topic.

[neosdark]

@neosdark

The communist doctrine heavily emphazised on the need to go to the offensive whenever you can; soviet forces were placed on the western border since the early 1930's to counter-attack an attack from the "capitalist devil". Even during the Cold War, there were a lot of soviet division in East Germany ready to attack the West within 3 hours of the declaration of war. The deployment you mentionned is due to the doctrine in use at that time in the Red Army.

1) I wasnt even aware of that fact 
But again, that could be linked to the offensive doctrine at that time.

2) During April and May 1941, Stalin reluctantly authorized a partial mobilisation of some unit on the border. Your great-grandfather may have been in one of these particular unit.

3) Ahhh, the numbers! Always helpful!
   - Of the 20000 tanks you mentionned, 3/4 of them were simply unable to move/fire, due to a lack of mechanics and supply. Most of them were just destroyed at their garrison point.
The Mechanised Corps were simply not able to fight a war.
   - 1 000 000 paratroopers; this one is pretty vicious: there was 1000000 men able to perform paradrop, not 1000000 able to fight like paratroopers. These were for the most part volunteers whom had a training related to paradrop, nothing more. And ANYWAY, Stalin didnt have enough planes to perform great scale paradroping. The few planes able to fly were used, well, for training.

4) I dont understand how its related to the topic.

1) The Soviet Army was an offensive army, that's true, but even if you have an Offensive doctrine camping soldiers within 50 meters of the border in peace time, seems awfully suspicious to me.

2) You never "reluctantly" authorize mobilization, partial or full. Mobilization is done for two reasons;

1. A predicted attack on your borders in which case you begin defensive preparations and pull your soldiers as far away from the border as you can to bunkers and other fortified strongholds, letting attrition do its job. Or

2. As preparation for an offensive operation. Partial mobalization is technically impossible because this leaves you half prepared, half drowsy. Imagine having one eye always open and the other always closed. It's quite irritating because either you want to close both eyes or open both of them, but you don't know exactly what your doing, so you leave half of yourself prepared, but the rest of you unready. In anyway, partial mobilization only really works if in fact you plan to open the other the eye, not close it, I.E. attack not defend. Its a waste of resources otherwise. I imagine training and drilling can easily be carried out in a local base or the local forest, you don't need to mobilize any forces for this, just a once monthly call to the local base and train away.

3) The fact that so many tanks were there proves something. I don't agree with Suvorov on one thing, the date of the attack, it would make more sense to attack in September or earliest in August, other than July, but I digress. The number of tanks there, working or not was many more than the Germans had at the time. The fact that the Soviets had so many of these tanks there (most of which were BT-7s) means something.

4) The 1,000,000 paratroopers is actually an under-estimation in my personal opinion. During the 30's, when many of the soldiers who would later serve in the Great Patriotic War were in their teens, most of the country was gripped with a fascination with flying, local pioneer youth clubs were learning to fly planes, gliders and to parachute. Now this seems strange, but Stalin didn't need that many planes, because he had gliders. A glider is easy to make and can be made by the millions. Plus you don't launch all your paratroopers at once, that's just plain stupid. In a paradroping operation of that type, you drop the first wave, which is supposed to secure some objective, usually elimination of AA batteries for more Paratroopers to be flown in, then the larger group will proceed to destroy any particular objective and if any particular group encounters any stubborn resistance you would release the reserve Paratroopers. Anyway I think the 1,000,000 Paratroopers are the well-trained men, the other couple of hundred thousands were the less trained ones. By the way, the flying fascination pretty much insured that any man or women who could para-drop also knew how to fly plane.

5) I'm just explaining the origin of most of the Guard Units, the Paratrooper battalions that didn't get to actually drop became the Guards.

Anyway some more fun facts:

The Soviet Army's Sapper units were de-mining the roadways and forests that lead to the border with Germany, in these very forests the Soviet Infantry would be camping when the German's caught them of guard. The Sappers were also defusing the explosives set on all bridges located anywhere near the border and even further inside the Soviet borders. All these explosives are designed as counter-measures to invaders, to increase the attrition they would receive. I assure you that the Germans were doing the exact same thing on the opposite side of the border.

Speaking of the paratroopers and planes, the most numerous plane in the Soviet Air Force at the time was the Su-2 a ground attack plane in the same vein as the Stuka and the infamous Japanese Kate which bombed Pearl Harbor.
All of these planes are designed to be used in Total Air Supremacy strategy, with the destruction of the enemy airfields as phase one and then continued destruction of pretty much any other targets that represented a viable threat in the first few hours of the War (the surprise phase). Not trying to be the smart guy here, but I think that's exactly what the Germans did within the first few hours of Barbarossa, as did the Japanese against the Americans. Worked great didn't it, but the Soviets had more planes. The problem with the Soviet Air Force was that most pilots were not trained on Interceptor tactics, the proper form of Defensive Air Operation, but on ground attack operations. There were some Interceptors, but many of them couldn't lift off, since the air bases were so close to the border, another thing that implies a planned offensive. Otherwise why build an air force base so close to the border (these bases were built recently, just before May 1941 if I recall correctly)

[Red_Stinger]

1) It was also suspicious to Suvorov, apparently. But suspicion is rarely something you can rely on.

2) You seem pretty uninformed on that point. Stalin didnt wanted, at all cost, Hitler to attack, because he knew that the Red Army wasnt ready. Thats why german could fly over soviet territory, taking photos and preparing Barbarossa in every details without being annoyed. Stalin was just blind in that regard, despite every warning he didnt wanted to mobilise the army. By "reluctantly", I mean that he authorized the general staff to mobilise some unit, secretly, but that's it.

3) I repeat, 20000 tanks is a false number considering the capabilities of these tanks at the time. And again, I stated earlier that Stalin would have maybe attacked in 1944 (or 1943), so this deployment can be explained. But more than 15000 were unable to move, and some tanks were also stationned to the Far East. Finally, you get fewer operationnaly ready tanks than the germans at the time.

4) The Red Air Force couldnt perform even small scale paradropping in 1941. Stalin did wanted to have a paradrop operation during the annexation of Bessarabia, but the Romanians didnt resisted. You arent ignoring that paratroopers formation did fight mostly on the ground as regular formation, because of a lack of planes? And btw, gliders cant fly by themselves.

5) How Guards unit are related to what I said earlier, or to the topic? 

6) You can bring to the table every "fun facts" you want, but it dont prove anything if not taken carefully, with verified information about the context/ the period. Dont take it personnaly.

[Tankbuster]

So Hitler Pre emptively struck Stalin's Preemptive strike force?

[Paciat]

I repeat, 20000 tanks is a false number considering the capabilities of these tanks at the time. And again, I stated earlier that Stalin would have maybe attacked in 1944 (or 1943), so this deployment can be explained. But more than 15000 were unable to move

Ill also add that new T-34 and KV tanks lacked HE shells to they just run the German "door knocker" guns over. Soviets werent ready for an offensive.
Heres a propaganda video about it:
T-34 vs flak 88

[cephalos]

that's what I like  crushing AT guns!

[Dann88]

At the end of the clip we have a kangaroo T-34, yay
Sorry but I still dont understand this topic's talking about, Viktor Suvorov's memory or The Soviet's preparation for the war or something else .
@neosdark: could you tell me more about him Viktor Suvorov, I doubt he was never on the front line to know what was on report and what really was.

[neosdark]

Viktor Suvorov was Spetnaz GRU agent in late 1978, he was just a boy during the Great Patriotic War. He originally wrote this book to describe what he saw as secret preparations to attack Germany in July 1941 (the only point on which I disagree with him, I think the attack should have occurred in September of 1941) , because he actually had access to the secret records (being a top GRU agent), that the Russians still haven't released (dunno why, Democracy my ass, its a giant Dictatorship in a sense) Anyway, when he escaped from the Soviet Union he released his book in 2 languages after which it was printed in even more languages.

Paciat I don't know where you heard about the lack of HE shells, in fact those were in good supply before the war, AT shells not so much, but HE were always available. As you said that's a propaganda video, just like the Polish Cavalry charge against German Panzers.

I really don't need any references for that, ask or consult any Soviet Tankman's memoirs, particularly the guys who started and finished the war in the same tank, like my great grand-uncle, he started the war and finished the war in the same KV-2, pretty nice right, but let me tell you the whole story. When the war began he was in command of an entire Company of KVs (1s and 2s, they never got 85s though). At the beginning of the invasion he was accompanied by a NKVD Motorized field battalion. Anyway Barbarossa started and like most he wasn't expecting it, (he told my grandpa that he expecting their own attack to begin within a few months) but he started a retreat operation. A few Kilometers from the Border they found a Supply Depot, which was filled up with munitions and fuel, while they were running dry of fuel. The Guard there didn't believe them when they said the attack had begun (then again he was probably an idiot cause he didn't notice that his entire depot was abandoned), so they beat him up and took all the munitions and fuel they could carry, blew the rest up, and were able to subdue the Guard and put him in the back of the Motorized Divisions truck, when they reached Moscow (they were able to escape an incirclement around Kiev, by the skins of their tails), the Guard reported them in, and he was supposed to be demoted, but when they saw he was part of the NKVD Motorized Brigade, they instead gave him a commendation for destruction of vital resources so they couldn't get into German hands. His letter home described him seeing abandoned Trains filled with fuel, shells and ammunition, and men attempting to advance (yes Stinger you are right they were an offensive army, but they never even taught them defensive maneuvers, just offensive, no army does that unless its attacking I.E. the German Army and the Soviet Army, neither practiced defensive maneuvers only attacking maneuvers)

Dunno guys even if you didn't want to read my story here are the more important points, my Great-Grand-Uncle believed that the war was going to begin soon with a Soviet attack (he was there I can assure), he was able to locate a Storage Depot, not to far from the Border filled with fuel and munitions, he saw Train wagons filled to the top with munitions and fuel, by his estimation more than enough to carry an entire Army of KV-1s all the way to at least Warsaw. He was part of a NKVD Army, where do NKVD armies take part in?
 
Well that would be subjugation of dissidents and the invaded. Check the records of the Soviet Annexation of Western Ukraine from Poland and Romania in 1939. The NKVD was sent in to destroy the local inteligentsiya and establish full Communist rule. 

Stinger, just a question, have you yourself ever read any of his books? I formed my opinion after reading his books, he gives me plenty of evidence for an attack in September 1941, as does family records and other small things, anyway back to our Pro and Con arguments.


1)You seem to forget that, while Paratroopers can fight on the ground, they are Light Infantry so they are not issued as standard infantry, they would lack the heavier equipment of a standard regiment. They are useless unless used for a particular task, infiltration and holding of a particular objective for a certain amount of time, while I'm sure they fought on ground, they were in many cases mostly annihilated. You don't need that many planes if you have more gliders. If the enemy is unaware you only need a small amount of planes to infiltrate the enemy air space and drop Gliders and Paratroopers. This isn't D-Day when they know you are coming and you need a good 8000+ Paras, because otherwise too many will be lost with a lack of particular guidance and they wouldn't have enough men to finish the job.

2) How do you know, are you Stalin? Nobody wants to be attacked, but to turn a blind eye to your top spys, all of whom are telling you one exact same thing, the attack will commence on a specific day is, either the height of Stupidity, or some kind of ulterior motive. Stalin sure isn't stupid. Don't need a book to tell you that. As for the Recon Planes taking photos of Soviet territory, Soviet Planes were doing the exact same thing, look in the open Russian archives, pre-war 1941 and you will find some evidence of 1941 recon photos, in fact showing the gathering of German forces on the border, which of course Stalin refused to believe. But we aren't arguing about Stalin we are arguing about what he was doing, and what he was thinking when he placed his attacking army so close to them damn border with Germany.

Anyway, you said the fun facts have no evidence, hmm? Well since I'm not sitting in Russia ATM I can't go to the archives and prove to you firsthand that such records exist, but lets go back to numbers shall we?  A total of 910 Su-2 aeroplanes had been produced by the spring of 1942. After that they were discontinued. Source: Sukhoi:http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/museum/su2/ Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-2#Operational_history

Why did they stop producing these great aircraft, a dive-bomber designed to attack? Well it's because they were no longer attacking, Germany continued the use of the Stuka throughout the war because they were never able to develop a much better substitute in large numbers. The Soviets developed the Il-2 Sturmovik, which is designed for Defensive roles and Offensive roles, as well as being quite hard to bring down (their lovely nickname of Flying Tanks is a testament to that).

Now for the suspicions. If you feel a suspicion are you compelled to act upon it? Well I'm sure your words are no, but the fact of the matter is yes. Suspicion is a natural reaction to something you believe to be wrong, and is usually correct, not incorrect. Fine it doesn't prove him, but if enough people find something strange with it, then a general idea develops. Does Area 51 house aliens? Most people suspect it, who's right the many or the few? Not sure, but there's a reason for such a theory isn't there?

About the Guards: Just forget it, I was trying to show how the majority of them were born off the former Airborne battalions, so as to show exactly what happened to the Million men of the Soviet VVS.

As for the Soviet sappers thing: The Germans reported almost no injuries from mines, as well as absolutely no barbed wire or tank traps in their path  during the first few hours of their incursion into Soviet territory, check the German records on the first days of Barbarossa.