Operation Unthinkable...

[Tico_1990]

Ever heard of Mr Alfred Nobel? He was a Swede (the guy who invented dynamite and also the guy which the nobelprice is named after). Another famous Swede was Carl Linnaeus who, through his writings influenced a lot of other European studies. They were also the first nation to pass a law giving freedom of press.
Also, Italy never was a great nation, Rome was one. Greece wasn't a great nation either, several Greek citystates (most notably Sparta and Athens) were though.
Anyway, hugely off topic, let's get back to the topic at hand.

[tigerclawstyle]

Search Swedish Empire. Also if your interested in military science and philosophy, check out Carl Von Clausewitz's On War. From that you'd learn that the Swedes were one of the first European powers, to put a professional Army together, and their system influenced the British Army (even today) and Napoleon . As we all know, he revolutionized warfare all together.

Swedish military history goes back to the Viking Age, and influenced much of Europe for a long time during and after that age. They've also been to war with Russia 11 times, and beat them 3 times in a row in the 15th/16th centuries. Russia beat them 3 times as well, and the rest were stalemates. Not bad for a nation you don't consider to be a power and is 1/8th it's size.

Also, in 1709 after nine years of fighting, Peter the Great destroyed arch rival's Charles XII tough Swedish Army (at the time, the Swedish King was considered to be invincible) and marked the rise of modern Russia and decline of the Swedish Empire. Read up on the Battle of Poltava if your interested.

[Cranialwizard]

[...]
Also, Italy never was a great nation, Rome was one.

Italy had a comparable army in both the world wars. They were not unified until the 1800's so you can barely compare them to any other country because it was essentially a collection of city states. I would call them history changing anyway, loads of inventions and ideas come from Italy.

Though we are infamous for being half-ass. Do you know the reason why Venice is flooding/sinking? It's because the Italians built the city on a mudpit supported by a couple of sticks. (My theory was the Architects put the sticks in the mud and said "Well our job is done here" and went off to have more wine) Also, Pisa was literally built on an uneven swamp, which is why ALL their buildings lean, not just the tower. And infact they can completely straighten the tower but they didn't because no one wants to see the Straight Tower of Pisa.


A little political turmoil is common though...but that can't possibly hurt anyone though...can it?

And I'm a history student (university level). Sweden was a powerful nation once, even though you RedGuard might not be willing to aknowledge that. If you used to provide balance suggestions the same way "if I don't think/know then it isn't true" then I'm glad you aren't a part of the balance team anymore.

Ouch but +1

if you provide stupid arguments they way you do now your head will melt down and you will make other mentally slow by looking at you. slughead
im glad i cant actually see you

Libel is a shitty way to argue, seriously.

You're wrong, Sweden was a powerful country in past times and has been stated/proven by multiple intellects here. That is almost like saying the Netherlands was never a powerful country because it isn't a very powerful country now.

We're way off topic guys. Lets stop arguing about Sweden, it's been proven that it was formerly a powerful country.

[vonklaus]

If you consider that Vikings are from Scandinavia they had a pretty good run considering they invade all over Europe, parts of Asia, and may have made it to North America 400 years before Columbus. They gave Russia all they can handle in wars several times before finally losing Finland and there other Baltic holdings. They were an Empire till 1910's when they peacefully split from Norway.

Italy was never great Rome was?? Rome was Italy, Rome didnt start going down hill till the majority of there legions were comprised by non-italians. Ruling Europe for 700 years not good enough for you?

Greece never did anything? Well Alexander might have been Macedonia but most of his soldier were Greek. Culture Powerhouse unmatched by any in history. Is there any period of history in one region that has more great works, from Philosophy, to architecture, art, literature.

Just because these things did not happen 100 years ago like some of the other nations you mentioned does not lesser there accomplishments. Maybe in 1000 years people wont think that America, Russia, China, or Brittan ever did crap and that New Zealand and Paraguay are the greatest nations that ever were.

[tigerclawstyle]

Yes I agree, back on the topic on hand. The question Otto posed to us was whether or not the Swedes, would've gotten involved in Unthinkable. Again, like I said before, I don't know what kind of equipment they used before, during and shortly after the war ended in Europe, but I do know they had an extensive intelligence network from start to finish. Much of the intelligence gathered from Norway, Poland, and Germany itself cycled through Swedish channels to get to the allies on the British Isles.

Also many Swedes volunteered to fight for Finland against the Soviets which gave them alot of experience in fighting in cold weather warfare. I believe that the Norwegians, Swedes and Finnish with elements from Canada, UK, and USA could form a proper force to attack the Soviet Northern flank, either in the Baltic or in the Karelia region. They wouldn't make the same mistakes the Germans did (cold weather clothing) and the supply lines running through the Nordic countries could be sustained.

Again, where do you guys think an amphibious assault could occur (from Soviet/Western allies perspectives) and what kind of forces would they compose of?

[Tico_1990]

Tigerclaw, I'd say a feasible option would be to do a naval invasion on St. Petersburg and then either expand that territory a bit so that you can split the Soviet attention on multiple fronts. The other option, albeit risky, would be to do a naval invasion in st. Petersburg, and then march on to Moscow. The downside to this is that you'll be left with a very long corridor for your supplies which is easily attacked.

[Tankbuster]

Greece never did anything? Well Alexander might have been Macedonia but most of his soldier were Greek. Culture Powerhouse unmatched by any in history. Is there any period of history in one region that has more great works, from Philosophy, to architecture, art, literature.

The Poster seems to forget that the Indian and Chinese cultures are way older than said "Cultural powerhouse" and they survive to this day. On topic, the British had control of the middle east and Iran. They could have used it as a spring board to launch an invasion of the Caucasus. No Oil for the Ruskies!!!

[tigerclawstyle]

Tigerclaw, I'd say a feasible option would be to do a naval invasion on St. Petersburg and then either expand that territory a bit so that you can split the Soviet attention on multiple fronts. The other option, albeit risky, would be to do a naval invasion in st. Petersburg, and then march on to Moscow. The downside to this is that you'll be left with a very long corridor for your supplies which is easily attacked.

Definitely would be an option. Looking at Google Earth, all the Soviets would have to do to close the Baltic is occupy Denmark. However, the allies could just use Norway, Sweden and Finland for its base, and move landing craft overland. It would have to be a mostly infantry force, regular infantry, paratroopers, and special forces. Artillery and air bases in the Nordic countries could provide support where battleships and naval bombardment might not be able to reach the area of operations.

The bulk of the Soviet and Western allies armor would be situated in central Europe. The idea of any amphibious incursion would be to go through the Soviet's back door, and maybe have an armor force link up with it. Air power would be key.

[Tico_1990]

What tankbuster proposed is a good one, if the allies were to do a double invasion (one in st. Petersburg and one in the Caucasus), while keeping the soviets in central Europe as well, they could do a giant pincer manouvre.

[Otto Halfhand]

I am uncertain where the ambhibious assault boats would come from for use in European operations. An amphibious strike into the Baltic would be attractive but unlikely. How long did it take the Allies to prepare for Overlord, A ~40 mile crossing where air superiority had been present for years. Operations in Yugoslavia or Greece would have helped isolate the Soviets from potential allies.

Turn the glass. What would be early Soviet Response to Anglo/American aggression?

[Tankbuster]

Moving through the Caucasus into Iran and then rushing to the middle east to secure additional fuel supplies while starving the allies of theirs.

[tigerclawstyle]

Yeah I agree making a push for the oilfields of the Middle East could be something the Soviets do. That whole region might have opened up if Unthinkable occurred.

[RedGuard]

those oilfields are the lifeblood of any war machine. seize the oil fields and sieze victory

[vonklaus]

Greece never did anything? Well Alexander might have been Macedonia but most of his soldier were Greek. Culture Powerhouse unmatched by any in history. Is there any period of history in one region that has more great works, from Philosophy, to architecture, art, literature.

The Poster seems to forget that the Indian and Chinese cultures are way older than said "Cultural powerhouse" and they survive to this day.

but militarily there accomplishments are no where near the Greeks a small nation compared to these giants. Also very little of China or India affects my modern culture I live around (USA) compared to the amount of Greek or Roman.

[Otto Halfhand]

A Soviet push through the Caucasus' for the Persian Oil fields and access to the Persian gulf makes a great deal of sense. Southwest Asia has been an sphere of influence that  Rusviets have been interested in expanding for over 150 years. History has shown this is a very difficult area to fight in and control. We are still fighting in Kandahar, a city founded by and named after Alexander 2300 years ago.

I think the Sovs would have pushed in a slightly different direction. Turkey. Arguably Tito could have delayed or turned back an allied push in the Adriatic. The Yugoslavs did capture Trieste in 1945! Greece was just becoming involved in a civil war with its homegrown Communists; which would and did cause problems for the Brits during the period we are talking about. There is no question that the Sov Navy controlled the Black Sea. I have never subscribed to the Domino THeory  but I think acquisition of access to the Mediterranean was viewed by the Rusviets as a matter of Lebensraum. Asia Minor is a much better base of operations for operations in the Middle East than the Caucasus'

THe denial of oilfields has been touched on. Q.How would the the Soviets have obtained rubber? Lend Lease would no longer be providing the Sovs with organic transport. The Soviet rail system was designed to deny access to invaders, not move materials through areas with a different rail gauge.

OT: @VonkLaus: Your assertion about the impact of  the Indo- Chinese vis a vis Greek influences on American culture is very lopsided. I am a Helle-phile. I keep copies of Homer (and Rumi too) in my bathroom for Xristos sake. THe Chinese started the Fast Food industry during the California Gold rush. Built the Transcontinental Railroad too. Has a Greek or Chinese ever answered the phone when you were trying to get Tech help or an insurance claim adjusted? It was more likely an Indian. The Indians also invented pancakes, an American cultural phenomenon -(Gr.). (Further.OT=Did Napoleon say an army marches on it's stomach)?
America's strength lies in its multi-ethnic, cross-cultural diversity. Belittling the contributions of any group or nationality is silly) - Sorry for the rant.