[1.4.0.0] Needed changes for EF 1.4.1.0

[Alexander 'ApeMen' J.]

hi folks
as the most of the good players already knows soviets are still op!
after a match today i talked to some players. and we all think that there is only one real way to balance the soviets finaly.

they need to pay for their amilities!
we mean in detail the molotovs, grenades demo charges
therefore its totaly ok to discard the mun upkeep of the soviets!

also the stormovies must be changed (but there is already a thread)
gurards only a little change. the at grenades only after the shock guards upgrade.
mariens maybe reducing squad members -1
tested them not much but it was a hard hit in the face for the axis player that 3 vet2 grens cant killed a vet1 marine.

and plz soviet fanboys ^^ dont flame and say no that dont works with the original concept of the soviets. mabybe but its the only real and fair way to make it balanced and if you forget in 1.0 all soviet abilities were 4free like GoW and IL-2 and now? they all costs mun and it was right to change it!

[IJoe]

Frankly, I'm so tired of endless rampage about this OP issue, that I came to think about this solution to be the only viable one quite some months ago. I really don't see any other way, other than this one, or turning virtually all soviet units into worthless shit. No need to say, that is not an alternative I prefer.
So +1 to munition cost.
Concept, as I see it: lower MUN cost, longer cool-down, than that of other factions.

[Cranialwizard]

and plz soviet fanboys ^^ dont flame and say no that dont works with the original concept of the soviets. mabybe but its the only real and fair way to make it balanced and if you forget in 1.0 all soviet abilities were 4free like GoW and IL-2 and now? they all costs mun and it was right to change it!

Those are doctrinal abilities, not abilities concerning units and upgrades you purchased before-hand in the Armoury.

[Alexander 'ApeMen' J.]

Does it matter???
The others armies must alsp pay for these skills or research them!
you can say what you want it is op and not fair for the other armies...

and as IJoe said
"I really don't see any other way, other than this one, or turning virtually all soviet units into worthless shit"

or did you say usa is shit because you must pay for stickys?
i dont think so ;-)

[Cranialwizard]

The fact that active abilities do not need to be paid for is a unique feature of the soviet faction. Adding cost to them in replacement of the high munition upkeep is just stupid, it's all going to be lost ammo in the long run, AND it makes the soviets like the other factions.

The compensation for the direct "No cost abilities" is the cooldown time. Rifles can chuck about 3 stickies in a 60 second period, where as Conscripts can only launch a single molotov in that time frame. (IIRC)

Think about things like AT Grenades on Tank Hunter and Guard squads. Those have ridiculous cooldown times. (~2 minutes on a Tank Hunter, no?)

[IJoe]

The point is, that people will never relent calling SU awfully OP as long, as soviet players will abuse (and they surely will) the use of MUN-free abilities through, as we are all aware, multiple similar  squad presence, to compensate for rather long cool-down timers. This leads us to:
A) inevitable blobbing, which is VERY bad, IMO,
B) unnecessary, excessive and annoying use of all possible abilities, like, f.e. even throwing AT nades at infantry, or mass satchelling enemy troops/armor (yeah, I've seen even decent players do that), just for the sake of doing something ["Hey, it's free anyway! So why bother?" (c)], which is just as stupid and bad, as point A), if not more.
Lower ( than that of other factions) MUN cost for abilities with longer cool-downs could make for a "unique faction feature" just as well, IMO.

[Alexander 'ApeMen' J.]

The fact that active abilities do not need to be paid for is a unique feature of the soviet faction. Adding cost to them in replacement of the high munition upkeep is just stupid,

so and now read again what i had written!

i said that therefore the mun upkeep of the soviets can be discarded!!!!

i not mean upkeep and mun cost because it would be that what you said. just stupid

and these "unique feature" of the soviets what you mean is in my eyes that they have like the wehrmacht a special unit for every situation not the free use of grenades!

and this will still be unique even if they pay mun.

[GodlikeDennis]

We'll see how the nerfing of the abilities goes first without the massive rebalance that will have to occur to change the way the faction works.

[Chancellor]

Soviets currently have muni upkeep instead of manpower upkeep, am I right?

[Blackbishop]

Soviets currently have muni upkeep instead of manpower upkeep, am I right?

Infantry have manpower upkeep.

Tanks/vehicles/team weapons/tanks (except ISU-152) have manpower and munitions upkeep.

[Chancellor]

I have a rather radical idea, but I really like it so I'll put it out there:

I have always thought that Soviets lack the Zerg feel to them that they're supposed to have.  USA can outspam them right now.  Perhaps if global vet was lowered to 9% maximum and all Soviet abilities cost a normal amount of munitions, EF can remove all upkeep from Soviet units altogether, so they can have a higher manpower / munitions income, as represented by the real war.  Soviets could then even have a USA-like supply yard upgrade to further increase their manpower income even more.

[Wilson]

I have a rather radical idea, but I really like it so I'll put it out there:

I have always thought that Soviets lack the Zerg feel to them that they're supposed to have.  USA can outspam them right now.  Perhaps if global vet was lowered to 9% maximum and all Soviet abilities cost a normal amount of munitions, EF can remove all upkeep from Soviet units altogether, so they can have a higher manpower / munitions income, as represented by the real war.  Soviets could then even have a USA-like supply yard upgrade to further increase their manpower income even more.

Mmm, I disagree. Soviet basic infantry already has high squad member counts, which gives enough feeling of numbers (along with the conscripts at the start).

CoH isn't designed to handle large battles well. It's about micro of individual squads more than relative positioning of large numbers of squads. Because of the relatively fast pace of the game and a lack of design for it, most people can't properly control a lot of units, which leads to blobbing, which isn't fun.

I think it would be extremely difficult to balance one faction having a higher income without just making all their units overpriced, or nerfing some other aspect of them (e.g. making their doctrine abilities bad) which would detract from the game rather than adding to it. But I think it's mainly that CoH isn't designed for large scale battles (certainly not on a 1v1 level).

[Desert_Fox]

I have a rather radical idea, but I really like it so I'll put it out there:

I have always thought that Soviets lack the Zerg feel to them that they're supposed to have.  USA can outspam them right now.  Perhaps if global vet was lowered to 9% maximum and all Soviet abilities cost a normal amount of munitions, EF can remove all upkeep from Soviet units altogether, so they can have a higher manpower / munitions income, as represented by the real war.  Soviets could then even have a USA-like supply yard upgrade to further increase their manpower income even more.

Mmm, I disagree. Soviet basic infantry already has high squad member counts, which gives enough feeling of numbers (along with the conscripts at the start).

CoH isn't designed to handle large battles well. It's about micro of individual squads more than relative positioning of large numbers of squads. Because of the relatively fast pace of the game and a lack of design for it, most people can't properly control a lot of units, which leads to blobbing, which isn't fun.

I think it would be extremely difficult to balance one faction having a higher income without just making all their units overpriced, or nerfing some other aspect of them (e.g. making their doctrine abilities bad) which would detract from the game rather than adding to it. But I think it's mainly that CoH isn't designed for large scale battles (certainly not on a 1v1 level).

+1

ATM playing with Russians in early game is not simple (for me) because a good axis player can be a slaughter of conscripts and normal eng. with a couple of MG and Volksgrenadiers (I'm talkin' about 1v1)..with Panzer Elite it's also different.

The problems comes with late game, when some abilities are searched...Molotov Bombs can be spammed like hell (cit.), Satchel charges too.

IMO The concept is not RUSSIANS ARE OP, but there are some little things that should be fixed.
Partisan's Demo Charges, if I'm not wrong has a long time of cooldown, why don't put it the same time at Sturmovie's Satchels or Molotov Bombs?

[GodlikeDennis]

Molotovs and Satchels at least need an enemy to have an effect. A demo trap can lie dormant until it needs to be activated and can be put on neutral buildings. Spamming these would be too good. The demo will instantly kill everyone inside the building regardless of whether the building is actually destroyed or not. They're very powerful.

I get what Yau is saying. However, conscripts already have 0 upkeep and 0 pop cost. The main infantry should be the same as other factions (although 7 man squad strelky are already quite a lot) but the conscripts will remain throughout the game while costing you very little. They give the illusion of a massive hoard already. Many people are bad though and lose their conscripts. It's practically impossible to lose a conscript squad because of the high man count. Besides that, a redesign of this magnitude would take ages to balance when we're already doing reasonably well.

[Chancellor]

Alright I read everyone's posts and I took into consideration everyone's opinions.

The thing is that Wehr has medic bunker (I'm not saying Soviets should have a med bunker here) and USA has supply yard upgrade to make their troops a lot more recyclable, even more so than conscripts!  Hence why Soviets can actually be outspammed by gren or riflehordes.

I always felt that the Zerg feature should have been the unique faction feature for Soviets.  Free abilities was just fail, and should not have been that feature.

As for potential imbalance, as I mentioned, global could have its max lowered to 9 or even deleted, and all Soviet abilities could cost the normal amount of munitions.  USA already has superior manpower income.  Its a wonder why Soviets of all factions don't have that feature.

The claim that CoH cannot handle big battles is just false.  I'm not sure where that idea came from.  Also when you have a lot of squads to spare, that's when you can afford to flank for more dynamic play.  The idea of the Zerg thing is to have so many of these guys come from like 5 directions at once and flank the MGs.  If this were implemented, it would only effect late game anyways.

Anyways, I respect everyone's opinion nevertheless.  Thanks for the inputs.