[1.4.0.0] Conscripts

[Dot.Shadow]

The conscripts were praised as amazing in the donors forum with their veterancy. Unfortunately I have a hard time seeing them being good at anything. Most of my time I have them back at some point reinforcing them or healing them, as they die of practically right away.

Now, I do realise that they are supposed to be bad, but it leaves the soviets at at such a disadvantage early on. The Wehrmacht have MG teams, snipers and the absolutely fantastic MP40 upgrade. A player with any kind of micro skill can easily beat the soviets with a MG and a mp40 volks squad.

I also realise that the molotov cocktail is supposed to be a counter to these problems, but at 50 munitions and 20 fuel (I think it's roughly that fuel cost at least) it's much better to tech for a sniper/AT gun or a PTRD/mortar squad which will get the job of clearing out those pesky MGs much faster than a costly charge and throwing a molotov.

I am also concerned with their veterancy progression. From what I gather they earn recrewing capabilities at vet 1, a full set of rifles at vet 2 and become un-suppressable at vet 3. I've so far managed to get a squad to vet 1 in a match, and that was at the very end destroying the enemy's base. Even if one puts a great deal of effort into vetting them the unit is still far weaker than easier options.

I'd like to suggest changing the vet 1 and vet 2 bonuses around. This will make it easier to give the squad veterancy, and it does make sense in terms of weapon experience. The squad starts off with minimal training and only a handful of guns. At vet 1 they've managed to acquire regular rifles (perhaps even looted kar98k's?), and at vet 2 they've earned enough combat experience to know how to operate a heavy weapon.

I'd also like to suggest removing the molotov's munitions cost, and instead giving it a manpower cost, on par with the Panzer Elite's incendiary grenades.

[GodlikeDennis]

The conscripts were praised as amazing in the donors forum with their veterancy. Unfortunately I have a hard time seeing them being good at anything. Most of my time I have them back at some point reinforcing them or healing them, as they die of practically right away.

They are fine, I'll gladly show you in a game. You still get strelky after 35 FU if you don't like them.

Now, I do realise that they are supposed to be bad, but it leaves the soviets at at such a disadvantage early on. The Wehrmacht have MG teams, snipers and the absolutely fantastic MP40 upgrade. A player with any kind of micro skill can easily beat the soviets with a MG and a mp40 volks squad.

I also realise that the molotov cocktail is supposed to be a counter to these problems, but at 50 munitions and 20 fuel (I think it's roughly that fuel cost at least) it's much better to tech for a sniper/AT gun or a PTRD/mortar squad which will get the job of clearing out those pesky MGs much faster than a costly charge and throwing a molotov.

I am also concerned with their veterancy progression. From what I gather they earn recrewing capabilities at vet 1, a full set of rifles at vet 2 and become un-suppressable at vet 3. I've so far managed to get a squad to vet 1 in a match, and that was at the very end destroying the enemy's base. Even if one puts a great deal of effort into vetting them the unit is still far weaker than easier options.

I'd like to suggest changing the vet 1 and vet 2 bonuses around. This will make it easier to give the squad veterancy, and it does make sense in terms of weapon experience. The squad starts off with minimal training and only a handful of guns. At vet 1 they've managed to acquire regular rifles (perhaps even looted kar98k's?), and at vet 2 they've earned enough combat experience to know how to operate a heavy weapon.

How you describe it was initially how it was. It was a last minute change to swap vet1 and 2. Instead I would suggest to keep it the way it is but lower the vet requirements to 6/12/24.

I'd also like to suggest removing the molotov's munitions cost, and instead giving it a manpower cost, on par with the Panzer Elite's incendiary grenades.

No reason to.

[Dot.Shadow]

They are fine, I'll gladly show you in a game. You still get strelky after 35 FU if you don't like them.

Bring it on mate I'm called Manslayer3 ingame. The first few units in the match can make or break an entire game. CoHO showed this clearer than ever before.

How you describe it was initially how it was. It was a last minute change to swap vet1 and 2. Instead I would suggest to keep it the way it is but lower the vet requirements to 6/12/24.

I suppose this could work as well. What are the requirements now?

No reason to.

I'd say there is a reason. Especially if the vet requirements are not lowered. It would give the Soviets a proper counter to their problems.

[GodlikeDennis]

The vet requirements are currently 8/16/32 I think, which is too high for lowly Soviets.

The change you propose to the upgrade is meaningless.

It would give the Soviets a proper counter to their problems.

This makes no sense. It doesn't actually change anything but make molotovs easier to get. Molotovs are actually quite OP. They need their cooldown increased.

[IJoe]

^^ right after axis hmgs get some fair nerf (like slower movement, or higher cost)
As for xp, it NEEDS to be set lower - these guys are 37 hp ffs.
As for mp cost, I don't think soviets need yet another mp draining upgrade.

[RedGuard]

yeah conscripts got nerfed, they died in hordes to begin with and STILL they give 2XP a kill, when facing PE they give vet faster than US or Brit, it should be changed and lowered

the correct vet bonus' are as follows

vet1  .95 received damage
vet2   rifles
vet3 unsupressable

and its 8/16/24 vet, which is actually very hard to attain - Im not so sure it should be changed however if anything I think there nerfs should be reversed

[GodlikeDennis]

Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.

[RedGuard]

Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.

mods plz make sure dennis' account hast been hacked this must be some imposter 

I've always agreed with that dennis if you put a few mg42's in the right place it will effectively win you the game, and that early on the game shouldnt be decided by such a mindless unit

[IJoe]

Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.

There wasn't much of that to begin with, IMO. But ATM it's just fxcking insane 

[Hamasei]

Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.

You dont need a nerd yo mg42, you need to do a 2 - 3 sides atac. MG 42 only can atac to 1 flanks.

The nerf will sopose an anothoer advedtange to soviets men, also you have 2 sniper men team! if you can kill a mg team with 1 usa sniper, or only with british sniper hability, with 2 men snipers you cant ?!?! O.O you need a neerf to the mg42!! OMG the Wer is suposed to be little defensive at first and need a good mg because if it dont have Wer player can lose all ground! The prices of the units are too expensive (volks 280 -> USA riflemen 270) Riflemen are better and are more cheaper because you can use volks with sniper or with mg at early game but when you have this usa player have 3 squads you understand? and you cant take ground if usa player dont do mistakes.
With USSR snipers are shit vs 8 men squads, then you only can do a MG with volks and moto or swin. with wer you are limited to a concrete tactic and you want to nerf the wer unique early tactic to nerf all wer players early game or what?

[RedGuard]

This is not a personal attack but it seems like you've missed the point, and have an unsatisfactory understanding of balance as a whole

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

Now why you guys think the soviet mortar has it's mortar ability again. Btw remeber: Research the molotov cocktail upgrade. They will burn the shit out of those MGs. Also use the charge ability of your Command squad...

[Dot.Shadow]

Guys, could we keep it to the conscripts? ^^

I've noticed as of late that the molotovs seem to have a near 100% chance to damage a vehicles engine. This seems rather OP, and is extremely annoying. A fair chance is okay, but the near 100% is really annoying.

[GodlikeDennis]

Yeah they were supposed to have only a small chance but I theorise the damage over time aspect of molotovs lets them reroll this chance 8 times a second (once per tick). It's yet another OP aspect of the molotovs now.

[Paladin88]

Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.

You dont need a nerd yo mg42, you need to do a 2 - 3 sides atac. MG 42 only can atac to 1 flanks.

The nerf will sopose an anothoer advedtange to soviets men, also you have 2 sniper men team! if you can kill a mg team with 1 usa sniper, or only with british sniper hability, with 2 men snipers you cant ?!?! O.O you need a neerf to the mg42!! OMG the Wer is suposed to be little defensive at first and need a good mg because if it dont have Wer player can lose all ground! The prices of the units are too expensive (volks 280 -> USA riflemen 270) Riflemen are better and are more cheaper because you can use volks with sniper or with mg at early game but when you have this usa player have 3 squads you understand? and you cant take ground if usa player dont do mistakes.
With USSR snipers are shit vs 8 men squads, then you only can do a MG with volks and moto or swin. with wer you are limited to a concrete tactic and you want to nerf the wer unique early tactic to nerf all wer players early game or what?

Dispite the very messy appearence I think I get what he's trying to say:

Use 2-3 way attacks to "flank the MG42" (The pack up time and set up makes it harder to micro manage.)

You can't do it with two men sniper team (kill MG42 crew members). Alright I'm going to have to cut you off there. The sniper team has 1 sniper and 1 observer. In other words, there's only one man that "snipes" the other has the binoculars and uses an ordinary rifle! If you haven't grasped that fact you can't argue that point, you understand? They have no more advantage than recon sections really.
 
He reckons the wehr is very defensive at the start because of the riflemen blobs can take more advantage cause they are cheaper and easier to reinforce and there are just so many of them. Therefore the nerf of the MG42 does not make sense. But my question is what about the players that do WSC (weapon support) starts and not Barracks?

He then literally says "The wehr relies on concrete tactics and now you want to nerf that for all wehr players" I'm sorry, your line of logic aint follow.

My conclusion: Nazi fanboy (plz ignore his post) Balance > Nazi fanboys

However, as awesome as you are GodlikeDennis, are you sure you haven't overlooked something? 

Conscripts are cannon fodder. It even says so in their description. People that rely on them too much will be in trouble. I agree with you that the vets should be made easier at 6/12/24 but can you really demand a nerf because they are not like that?

No, I am not a Nazi fanboy (I much prefer allies) and perhaps I haven't seen the bigger picture but I don't really think they need to be nerfed since .30 cal also has a similar stat now. If I have missed something could you please enlighten me. Oh and that game vs crap player. Can you post it?