Summary of the Ostheer sneaks [WIP]

[Ghost]

added pics from the latest update:
-Sdk. 9 "Famo"
-Infantry Support Gun
-Pz. II "Luchs"
-Pak 36
-Pak 40
-Panzerwerfer
-Sdk. 251 B (aka Troop Halftrack)
-Ofenrohr Trupp
-Panzerfusiliers
-Tiger (doctrine)
-Kingtiger (doctrine)

[Bottlecap84]

Hello EF community,
I have a concern which I would like the EF community to address. What is the point of the FlaK 38? I phrased that poorly because I know its purpose is a support weapon that is lethal towards infantry but in my opinion the Unit is mostly redundant because of other units available. Let me explain:
First of all I will compare it to the MG34 which is also a support weapon that is lethal towards infantry. Both are direct infantry killers rather than indirect infantry killers such as mortars and are used to deal with large numbers of infantry units unlike snipers. On paper the MG will have far greater suppression capabilities than the flak but the flak will cause greater damage. They are both vulnerable to snipers, three shots per unit, and are both equally vulnerable to mortars, tanks and armoured cars. However this is where the list of similarities between the two units ends. The MG has a far greater survivability, primarily because it can retreat and the flak cannot. This means the flak will be more likely to be captured and used against you and I assume the flak will cost more and take up more population than the MG. The major difference between them is the fact that the flak is a tier 2 unit. This is far too late for a unit that can be so easily compared to the MG and will not be as useful in my opinion.
Next I will compare it to the upgraded troop halftrack. Both use a Flak 38 20mm cannon which is lethal towards infantry. Although the Flak 38 does not cost fuel or require a certain pool it is inferior in nearly every way to the troop halftrack. The upgraded troop halftrack is invulnerable to snipers, mortars and infantry. On top of that it is far more mobile, can reinforce your infantry and can micro enemy infantry, the flak can do none of these things. In short it would be far more profitable to wait for a troop halftrack than a flak 38.
I see no reason to choose the flak 38 over either of these units and as a result I deem it quite pointless. If the DEVs can challenge me on this claim and prove that it isn’t totally useless than that’s fine but if I’m right this is the solution I propose. Put the Flak 38 in the MG34s place and get rid of the MG entirely. As I have already proved the MG and the flak have very similar uses and properties so the flak would not be out of place. On top of that the flak is unique and the MG is not. Finding a unit to put in the Flak 38s original place would not be hard; the Panzer IB, the SDKFZ 10/5 or the SDKFZ 232 can all be succeeded by the Panzer II.
On top of this the upgrade for the troop halftrack should be changed. If the troop halftrack was a neutral unit you could have two separate upgrades that would be unlocked separately after you research each pool. For example if you research the Heavy assault pool a 75 mm L/24 low velocity gun upgrade can become available or if you research the Heavy support pool a Pak 36/40 upgrade becomes available. The 75mm L/24 upgrade would give the halftrack a cannon similar to the Panzer Elites Panzer IV cannon and the Pak 36/40 upgrade would give the halftrack an AT gun, which would either be a Pak 36 or a Pak 40 depending on whether or not the modernisation upgrade has been purchased.
I understand the idea of changing some units in the faction when it is a few months from release is repulsive but all I ask is for you to consider it.

[GodlikeDennis]

What makes you think the flak cannot move? AFAIK it will function like a cross between an AT gun and a BOFORs and might/might not lock down to fire. As for it's purpose, there are loads of units that exist in the game with the same purpose but do it differently, come earlier or are stronger at it. It's impossible to gauge until we actually see it in action. If it doesn't work, we can change it. The balance team has changed a few Soviet units and mechanics over a year after their release. No tears will be shed for a unit that may or may not be removed before it even hits the public. I'm sure we'll find a way to make it work anyway.

[Ghost]

What makes you think the flak cannot move? AFAIK it will function like a cross between an AT gun and a BOFORs and might/might not lock down to fire. As for it's purpose, there are loads of units that exist in the game with the same purpose but do it differently, come earlier or are stronger at it. It's impossible to guage until we actually see it in action. If it doesn't work, we can change it. The balance team has changed a few Soviet units and mechanics over a year after their release. No tears will be shed for a unit that may or may not be removed before it even hits the public. I'm sure we'll find a way to make it work anyway.

+1

Fire position grants the weapon more precision while losing mobility

so unlike the MG34 Team the flak 38 will be able to fire while moving but with reduced accuracy.

the Sdk 251 troop halftrack will be only available to Heavy Assault pool and not as a neutral unit and it's flak upgrade will give you a mobile and better AI unit.

[GodlikeDennis]

Also I might add that just because it's the same weapon doesn't mean stats will be the same.

[Bottlecap84]

When did I say the Flak 38 couldn't move?. Oh that's right I didn't. Either that or I gave you the wrong impression in my post. Anyway I'm fully aware it can move. I'm making the point that the Troop half-track will have far greater mobility.

Besides, I'm just making the point that when balancing it you will have to make sure that the MG is substantially inferior to the flak 38, or it will beg the question why bother with the flak 38. You will also have to create a big enough gab between the the troop half-track and the flak 38 so the flak 38 doesn't become outclassed immediately. That or just change the troop half-track upgrade. I'll be interested to see what you do with it either way.

However I'm still not convinced that putting the Flak 38 in the MGs place is a poor choice of action. I'm actually quite shocked that it wasn't put there in the first place rather the wehrmacht MG.It would make the early game for the Ostheer far more interesting.

And ghost, I think you misread my post. I know that the halftrack part of the heavy assault pool, infact I noted it in my post. The paragraph where I mentioned different upgrades for the halftrack IF it was neutral was just hypothetical (Note my use of the word "IF").

[Blackbishop]

As far as I know, the MG-34 is only available if you choose certain pool. Meaning that Ostheer won't be able to use this unit all the time.

Besides the Flak can inflict more damage to light vehicles. Don't know what you expect comparing it with a MG-34 at all, let alone with the Troop Halftrack. Do you really think the HT mounted MG would be better than the tripod version?

You are talking as if a flak would going to be the same as the mg, and how that can be possible, being both used in different ways? Both were used versus infantry, I agree, but that has nothing to do with the function of each one.

About we proving it isn't totally worthless, that question is out of place, the only way it will be proved is on a match.

Then again, other than that, comparing a Tier 1 MG-34 with a Flak 38 T2 being the first optional and the second one "always" available is quite pointless. Remember why the pool system has been implemented.

EDIT: I forgot to address one thing you might confused... In order to upgrade your Halftrack with the flak 38 you will need to purchase modernization for that building. Meaning that you won't be able to deploy towed flaks anymore.

[GodlikeDennis]

I read this,

The MG has a far greater survivability, primarily because it can retreat and the flak cannot.

and mistook it as you saying the flak couldn't move at all.

Anyway, as for a niche it can fill that neither the MG or HT can... OH at this time lacks a mortar, real sniper or early flamer. For early anti-building they will have to rely on grenades from landsers. Perhaps we can make this flak 38 effective against units in cover/garrisons? It might also be a little capable against early light vehicles like an M8 or T70. Perhaps it will even be decent against MG nests and brit emplacements?

In any case, it's too early to say. Once the balance team gets to actually use it, we will find a use for it.

[Bottlecap84]

As far as I know, the MG-34 is only available if you choose certain pool. Meaning that Ostheer won't be able to use this unit all the time.
What difference does this make?

Besides the Flak can inflict more damage to light vehicles. Don't know what you expect comparing it with a MG-34 at all, let alone with the Troop Halftrack. Do you really think the HT mounted MG would be better than the tripod version?
When in my post did I ever compare the halftrack MG to the tripod MG?
You are talking as if a flak would going to be the same as the mg, and how that can be possible, being both used in different ways? Both were used versus infantry, I agree, but that has nothing to do with the function of each one.
Would you like to elaborate on how their functions are different?
About we proving it isn't totally worthless, that question is out of place, the only way it will be proved is on a match.

Then again, other than that, comparing a Tier 1 MG-34 with a Flak 38 T2 being the first optional and the second one "always" available is quite pointless. Remember why the pool system has been implemented.I don't see how one being more available than another makes much of a difference, I just means I have to wait an extra minute for my MG.

EDIT: I forgot to address one thing you might confused... In order to upgrade your Halftrack with the flak 38 you will need to purchase modernization for that building. Meaning that you won't be able to deploy towed flaks anymore.
Ah, now it makes more sense. So what you're basically telling me is that the whole building becomes modernised, I thought their were separate modernisation upgrades for each unit. That completely eliminates my problem with the halftrack and Flak 38.

Post Merge: November 01, 2011, 06:16:07 PM

I read this,

The MG has a far greater survivability, primarily because it can retreat and the flak cannot.

and mistook it as you saying the flak couldn't move at all.

Anyway, as for a niche it can fill that neither the MG or HT can... OH at this time lacks a mortar, real sniper or early flamer. For early anti-building they will have to rely on grenades from landsers. Perhaps we can make this flak 38 effective against units in cover/garrisons? It might also be a little capable against early light vehicles like an M8 or T70. Perhaps it will even be decent against MG nests and brit emplacements?

In any case, it's too early to say. Once the balance team gets to actually use it, we will find a use for it.

+1

Now you're talking. One difference like that that gives it a noticeable edge over the MG and its perfect.
Post Merge: November 01, 2011, 06:21:47 PM

OH at this time lacks a mortar, real sniper ........

That's interesting I thought the 75mm infantry support gun and marksman filled those roles. How do they work then?

[Ghost]

As far as I know, the MG-34 is only available if you choose certain pool. Meaning that Ostheer won't be able to use this unit all the time.
What difference does this make?

not every player will chose that pool so not everyone will have the MG. and not everyone will chose both pools for MG and halftrack, so these 2 units may not even be used in the same game

Besides the Flak can inflict more damage to light vehicles. Don't know what you expect comparing it with a MG-34 at all, let alone with the Troop Halftrack. Do you really think the HT mounted MG would be better than the tripod version?
When in my post did I ever compare the halftrack MG to the tripod MG?

blackbishops wants to point out that all 3 units will have different stats

You are talking as if a flak would going to be the same as the mg, and how that can be possible, being both used in different ways? Both were used versus infantry, I agree, but that has nothing to do with the function of each one.
Would you like to elaborate on how their functions are different?

1. mg as suppression and anti inf
2. flak as anti inf and anti light vehicles
3. troop halftrack with flak upgrade (optional per unit not global) (needs modernisation and in that moment you can't build more flak 38s) as additional option vs inf maybe vs. light vehicles (don't know about that) with better mobility but it will have a different ressource cost (maybe more fuel and munitions that the flak 38)
-> so they are all different and unique in their own ways

Then again, other than that, comparing a Tier 1 MG-34 with a Flak 38 T2 being the first optional and the second one "always" available is quite pointless. Remember why the pool system has been implemented.I don't see how one being more available than another makes much of a difference, I just means I have to wait an extra minute for my MG.

as i said above, the unit costs will be different, and players who play WM build MGs and Pumas at the same time, because they may have the same role (anti inf) but different stats, costs and pros/cons and come at different times in a game. i.e. when you have no fuel you can't build puma etc.
and again: not every player will go the same pool with the MG, if you don't chose that pool -> no MG34! it's as simple as that 

EDIT: I forgot to address one thing you might confused... In order to upgrade your Halftrack with the flak 38 you will need to purchase modernization for that building. Meaning that you won't be able to deploy towed flaks anymore.
Ah, now it makes more sense. So what you're basically telling me is that the whole building becomes modernised, I thought their were separate modernisation upgrades for each unit. That completely eliminates my problem with the halftrack and Flak 38.

all modernization upgrades are global for their tier

When did I say the Flak 38 couldn't move?. Oh that's right I didn't. Either that or I gave you the wrong impression in my post. Anyway I'm fully aware it can move. I'm making the point that the Troop half-track will have far greater mobility.

the point is that the flak 38 can fire while moving and doesn't have to set-up first like the MG, which makes a big difference. and again if you chose the halftrack pool you trade an improved AI unit for an AT unit (pak36/40) so it's ok the way it is.

And ghost, I think you misread my post. I know that the halftrack part of the heavy assault pool, infact I noted it in my post. The paragraph where I mentioned different upgrades for the halftrack IF it was neutral was just hypothetical (Note my use of the word "IF").

i didn't get that wrong. what i wanted to say is that you won't always have all 3 units (Mg, flak and upgraded halftrack) at the same time, cause if you chose these pools you have no AT options at all and will most likely be defeated already

OH at this time lacks a mortar, real sniper ........

That's interesting I thought the 75mm infantry support gun and marksman filled those roles. How do they work then?

marksman is T1 but isn't going to be a real sniper like WM/US (read the description), ISG 75mm will act similar to a mortar but is T2. and keep in mind that when you build the building you only have neutral units and must research a pool first (time and ressources and IIRC no more units buildable during the pool upgrade).

How do they work then?

marksman:

Summary: The marksman wields an StG-44, has similar traits to a normal sniper except that he'll dispatch their enemies from medium/short (not long) distance and has higher rate of fire. Sneak allows the marksman to move cloaked like any other sniper, but while he's hiding he cannot fire. Remember this before engaging.

-> med/short distance support until ace veterancy -> option to become sniper ace (real sniper)
ISG:will be like a mortar, but as said above, won't be available as soon as the flak38

[Blackbishop]

@Bottlecap84
1) Looks like you don't understand the pool concept of the Oshteer otherwise you won't answer to my MG-34 availabilty sentences with such comments. Here's another way to look at it.

If you pick the pool where the MG can be purchased, that's cool, perhaps you won't need the flak 38. But if you pick up the other pool you won't be able to recruit MG teams unless you switch pools which will cost you resources and time, giving your opponent an advantage. Remember that you will never have both pools at the same time.

2) The towed flak 38 is a T2 unit, meaning that will be stronger than the MG-34, although it can't have the same rate of fire than the latter. As Dennis said, it is a niche unit. You can wait one minute more if you like, but I don't think you will. I really doubt you will get a "fast" flak 38 easily, since you are "forced" to build the first building to start pumping out troops and have field presence and the second one costs more resources to be considered even at one minute later. If you build T1 and then focus on building T2 without choosing a pool on T1, meaning that will only use basic troops(landsers) you will fail badly.

3) I thought you were talking about HT MG because there's no way you can compare an HT w/flak 38 with a towed flak 38 because once you can get the former you are no longer able to get the latter. As you can see they appear at a completely different time, because you need to get one pool upgrade plus modernization. And the resources needed to such investment are high.

4) Marksman and leIG18 fill the role, but neither marksman is a sniper nor leIG18 is a mortar.

All in all, I think you are rushing conclusions too early. Even the balance team hasn't access to the build and you already are discarding units XD?

[Pac-Fish]

I see that you put a significant amout of thought into this and it's admirable + comendable. But I think that once testing occurs they will see these problems anywho . And even if they don't notice it in testing when everyone starts playing + abusing it then the balance concern will be very obvious

[Blackbishop]

@Fishhunterx
+1! Definitely!

But I think he was deep, perhaps too deep .

[Pac-Fish]

@Fishhunterx
+1! Definitely!

But I think he was deep, perhaps too deep .

So much, DEEP THOUGHT!! TOO MUCH FOR MY SMALL MIND! AHHH 

[irik]

Indeed. I think they're overly complicating Ostheer. I myself am coming to be confused. Is Flak 38 worth it? I feel like Marksman or MG34 will meet my needs.