[1.3.1.0] 88 and Flak 40

[jealco]

i have to agree that the 88/flakvierling need some kind of buff to their crew.  even in team games (about all i play, with some of my friends, for fun) the 88's are completely pointless.  at least, if the crew could take a hit or two, they may see some use in VP games.

at the very least, this kind of buff could give a little credibility back to the defense doctrine (which has always been a joke to me, even before relic announced the latest patch.)

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

I would recommend to place the 88 in the back lines not at the front because of it's great range. So if you want to cover a VP place a MG bunker near it. The 88 should be behind the bunker so that it's "unreachable" for enemy infantry and make sure to place a MG team inside the bunker. So that it can cover the 88 crew in case of a airborne attack.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I would recommend to place the 88 in the back lines not at the front because of it's great range. So if you want to cover a VP place a MG bunker near it. The 88 should be behind the bunker so that it's "unreachable" for enemy infantry and make sure to place a MG team inside the bunker. So that it can cover the 88 crew in case of a airborne attack.

True, you should not place it somewhere right next to the enemy FHQ. But still, 2 snipers instantly kill the crew, and sometimes these seconds until you've remanned it are enough for a good US player to steamroll your defenses and steal it, even if you put it in a defensive situation...

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

I think the first propaganda effect should be a little bit more expensive but while it's active all crews (only pak38 & 88) get elite armour.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I think the first propaganda effect should be a little bit more expensive but while it's active all crews (only pak38 & 88) get elite armour.

That doesn't make them any better. They still die to artillery and are still oneshot by snipers. That wouldn't fix anything besides making ftfl more useless...

[GodlikeDennis]

FTFL is an EXTREMELY good power. I believe you mean inspired assault, which is rather unimpressive.

[Zerstörer]

@Zerst

I would truly like you to link those replays so I can see for myself. I don't believe 88s are a valid investment except in team games, where even then they're easily countered and stolen.

Flakvierlings do awesome damage but again are countered too easily because of the low crew survivability. Emplacements tend to have less use in competitive games because it's all about mobility and maneuvering to the VPs. A flakvierling guarding a VP can just as easily be turned against you.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=766516

[COH] #8 - 1vs1 - Angoville - sztefenfu (def) vs loveleiarde (air) Part 3

There where a couple of others but couldn't find them atm- sztefenfu playing really defensively

[TheReaper]

Not to get off-into-history discussions, but I want to make a quick point:

Yes the Flak88 was originally designed as a AA weapon. General Rommel of the Afrika Korps was actually one of the first to command his troops to use the Flak88 as a AT weapon, due to his lack of supplies and limited US Airborne in Africa he had quite a stockpile of Flak88s and their ammunition.

Noooo, General Rommel of the Ghost Division. He was fighting in France and he couldn't fought back the British Army with his light tanks, so he got the idea to use the Flak gun against the British Matilda tanks, and it worked out. Later in the war Rommel was sent to North Afrika. Sorry about that.

Anyway good wideo there Zerstörer, i like to see this type of videos, stealing a few tips and tricks, maybe it worth to make a forum topic of it.

For the 88 mm gun, I stopped using it when I built to defend the base, and an american AT gun destroyed it out from it's line of sight. \o/.

[SnappingTurtle]

If the FlaK 88 is easy to counter with snipers or artillery that's because it's such a powerful counter to tanks, right?

[Cranialwizard]

But it's quite expensive, and with the crew so vulnerable it defeats it's positives.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

There where a couple of others but couldn't find them atm- sztefenfu playing really defensively

Interesting, but actually this looked like the US player NEVER encountered a 88 battery before. Those tanks rushing the 88 which was supported by another one was totally dumb and suicidal. It's just as clever as running Riflemen towards a pv4 without stickies and letting them die there.

But well, in that game the 88s played a major role, but only since the ally really didn't know what to do against them.

[GodlikeDennis]

Yeah I can't believe that US player actually lasted that long against Sztefenfu who's a freak at CoH. He seemed awful. The flaks played a decent role, but not one that couldn't have been done by 2-3 paks. It seemed like the Ami player didn't even realise his tanks were in LoS of the flak a lot of the time. Also, mortars to counter flak with nebels around? lol

The flaks in that game were never directly threatened by infantry, so it renders the whole point of the posting pointless to our discussion.

[Zerstörer]

There was another great replay I couldn't find, where the 88 did attract alot of attention and got de-crewed a few times but was so well defended that it always remained in axis hands.

Point is, I do see and understand that the damn thing gets de-crewed easier than perhaps it should ,but my fear is that if its not as vulnerable it can dominate the battlefield a bit too easily coupled with FTFL and defensive bunkers. The fact that COH experts have not addressed this indicates to me more that its not really an imbalance as things stand

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

Just played a Scheldt game. I was pos 6 with defensive doc. I build 2 88s vet 3. They weren't decrewed until the end of the game. The "ruled" the whole island and parts of the enemys' ammo point. That was epic. So don't be stupid cover your 88s with Grenadiers. I changed my opinion the flaks are good how they are now.

[Zerstörer]

Just played a Scheldt game.

I'm not being rude, but Scheldt is not a map to check balance.Who can make the most at/artillery and bomb the middle island the most. It simply doesn't count in the same sense as comp stomps don't count in balance talk