[1.3.1.0] 88 and Flak 40

[IJoe]

Hetzer spamming? Really? You must be an even worse player than I thought if you're losing to Hetzer spam.

You don't need to build a massive army to counter 88s. By the time they arrive you already have one. 2 snipers, an almost essential component against defensive players anyway because of zombie grenspam, instantly neuter the 88 and leave it vulnerable to an infantry or tank rush. Arty from infantry doc, which you will probably go against defensive players, means almost certain death for the crew and vulnerability again.

Thanks.
I didn't say I've ever lost to that, I just said it's an issue, and is annoying, because it's stupid, yet takes some time to deal with.
Surely, I'm not any kind of superb basement-dweller, but you can check it out yourself (though, seriously, you might be bored by that, since I play about 5 games a week, or even less) in about 3-4 hours from now.
As for blobbing, that was about allies, who are forced to do it against axis.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Surely 88 are not the reason, why I, personally, consider axis to be OP,- it's the sum of superb armor, AT (paks and shreks), and rather sustainable infantry, which literally forces people to play "noobish" (stupid blobbing etc.), because some proper style of play becomes increasingly ineffective.
I, personally, find some particular axis units to be too spammable, while being too good. This especially, in 2v2 and larger games, truly becomes an issue (when PE starts spamming hetzers, f.e.)
If you want to make 88 more resilient to infantry, then make it less effective against armor. That story about "OK, now: build a huge army, and beat the crap out of that 88" is plenty entertaining, really.

But if you insist we can play some matches, me as allies vs. your defensive turtle wehr

[IJoe]

@Darkreaver
It would be lovely, but I don't play wehr a lot, since I've discovered this mod, so, most likely, I would turn out to be an easy pray for a player, like yourself.
But I can practice a bit for a couple of weeks, if you're not in a hurry, that is. I'll even spend the entire coming weekend (that means, I'll play about 20-30 games) doing that.

[Venoxxis]

staying cool guys

IJoe is not a only-pro-UdSSR fanboy, he is quite neutral. Even with this flag in his signature

imo balane is quite ok as it is, but if you dont pwn the wehrmacht in the early or mid game - a well skilled player will always steamroll you. But guess thats not an balance issue, its the way you shouldnt fight the axis.
(that does usually not count for the UdSSR)

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

@Darkreaver
It would be lovely, but I don't play wehr a lot, since I've discovered this mod, so, most likely, I would turn out to be an easy pray for a player, like yourself.
But I can practice a bit for a couple of weeks, if you're not in a hurry, that is. I'll even spend the entire coming weekend (that means, I'll play about 20-30 games) doing that.

Sure, I'm fine with that and it's completely legit thing to do. Player skills actually play a huge role, so getting some equal skilled players to show something is always the most effective.

all I have to say: GL HF

Someone else here who can turtle with Wehrmacht?

staying cool guys

IJoe is not a only-pro-UdSSR fanboy, he is quite neutral. Even with this flag in his signature

Yeye, no offense taken. I just want to show that there's nothing hard to deal with a camping wehr. Unless he's really, really good at it - which means he's playing better than me and thus I loose he wins.

It's just that one question you have to answer if you're playing allies:

What do you fear more?

King Tiger + Firestorm on your AT- guns

or

Eighty-Eight + 2 bunkers somewhere on a VP and an occassional registered arty strike?

I for myself fear King Tiger + firestorm. What's your fear?

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

Did you guys know what Flaks are for? Flak = Flugabwehrkanone = AA. That means that they weren't made to destroy tanks & infantry. They were made to stand behind the lines and hold of planes which are incoming. Only the PE base flaks should get elite armour. The others not.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

post removed, I'm writing this as a pm.

[Venoxxis]

Okay, aliright i see you take it in the right way

It's just that one question you have to answer if you're playing allies:

What do you fear more?

King Tiger + Firestorm on your AT- guns

or

Eighty-Eight + 2 bunkers somewhere on a VP and an occassional registered arty strike?

I for myself fear King Tiger + firestorm. What's your fear?

KT usually, because of the terror doctrine
Tigers can be madass in the right hands, but the 88 does not compete with them.
Im also neutral to the topic, the 88 is very powerfull, but there is an issue he is right. If its enough of an issue to make an fix, i dunno.


Best regards

[Blackbishop]

@dArCReAvEr
This idea sounds interesting.

[Griptonix]

Did you guys know what Flaks are for? Flak = Flugabwehrkanone = AA. That means that they weren't made to destroy tanks & infantry. They were made to stand behind the lines and hold of planes which are incoming. Only the PE base flaks should get elite armour. The others not.

Oh thanks, but they also had an impecable record as being used as artillery and in the anti-tank role in every theater the Germans fought in.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

oh thanks, but they also had an impecable record as being used as artillery and in the anti-tank role in every theater the Germans fought in.

Sure they had, I already wrote him a PM, no need to further to go into history offtopic.

[Zerstörer]

As this is strictly balance discussion, please refrain from any reference to 'history as per the rules.

On that note, Flak88 is a pain to use properly but on the upside it can be extremely good at what it does. More often than not two are needed to divide attention.

Now there is nothing said by the experts about it and indeed I've seen some awesome replays recently in GR with great use of them (WH).That in tern means we're not really considering any change.

PE as a faction isn't really suitable defensive play at, which is what makes the 88 and Whirl(something) poor design choices(or rushed to use available models). Although there might be a 'choice' provided in the future, I won't discuss what it may be.

Whirl on the other hand is never seen in games as its too easy to get rid of, but then again, so is an MG bunker as it can get be flanked unlike the whirl. Whirl is more or less an MG bunker which like the 88 doesn't really fit well within PE design(in my opinion). Buffing this unit/structure may be an option in the future

[Cranialwizard]

Did you guys know what Flaks are for? Flak = Flugabwehrkanone = AA. That means that they weren't made to destroy tanks & infantry. They were made to stand behind the lines and hold of planes which are incoming. Only the PE base flaks should get elite armour. The others not.

Not to get off-into-history discussions, but I want to make a quick point:

Yes the Flak88 was originally designed as a AA weapon. General Rommel of the Afrika Korps was actually one of the first to command his troops to use the Flak88 as a AT weapon, due to his lack of supplies and limited US Airborne in Africa he had quite a stockpile of Flak88s and their ammunition.

[GodlikeDennis]

@Zerst

I would truly like you to link those replays so I can see for myself. I don't believe 88s are a valid investment except in team games, where even then they're easily countered and stolen.

Flakvierlings do awesome damage but again are countered too easily because of the low crew survivability. Emplacements tend to have less use in competitive games because it's all about mobility and maneuvering to the VPs. A flakvierling guarding a VP can just as easily be turned against you.

[RedGuard]

Id have to agree, the only time ive been 88'ed in a auto game is when I got rolled in which case I was outplayed badly anyway. So the game wasnt competitive.