[1.3.1.0] 88 and Flak 40

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I just posted over at relic forums something which came onto my mind today when I played the allied campaign map Omaha Beach:

FLAK 88
The Crew should get heroic armour!

Why?

Reason is simple: heroic armour units require 2 shots from a sniper to die instead of one.

Since the Flak 88 got nerfed against infantry and AT-guns it should also receive a buff to compensate, making it fulfil its role better. Only few people build the 88, since it's so lackluster and so easily decrewed.

Currently a single sniper kills the crew within 6-8 seconds, 2 snipers insta-gib the whole crew, even if you immediately react and try to kill the snipers (like sending in a bike/volks with mp40) the enemy can just decrew the gun and retreat his snipers and then rush in with his tanks. Even if you reman it his tanks will beat a 88 up close range.

I surely don't want to make it OP, it's just that the 88 already has lots of counters like mortars, AT-guns and of course every sort of artillery, even tanks if you don't spot for it properly. So there's no real need for allied snipers to take out the crew so easily.

Also, the Luftwaffe Vierlingsflak (the small one which is also base defense) should get heroic armour crews. The same reason applies to it: it's got plenty of counters, and I haven't seen one used in a competitive game ever. It can be decrewed easily, and in hands of an allied player the Flak deals way more damage against panzergrenadiers than against allied infantry.

[IJoe]

No, No, No, and NO again.
Axis are already OP as is, and were that from the very start, so now, when they finally got some very fair nerfs, it shouldn't be just rolled back, because people are so used to them being OP.
That's my very own personal view on the situation.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

No, No, No, and NO again.
Axis are already OP as is, and were that from the very start, so now, when they finally got some very fair nerfs, it shouldn't be just rolled back, because people are so used to them being OP.
That's my very own personal view on the situation.

Nobody said something about rolling the nerfs back. It's just about tier 2 snipers who cost 340 mp to not be able to insta-gib a doctrinal end game unit which can't move and costs 400mp/75 fuel + 10 or 12 pop. AT-guns destroy the flak in 2 hits, snipers currently unman it instantly, artillery deals high damage against it, mortars also and so on...

[Cranialwizard]

He's got a point...

I'm neutral on this idea. It sounds good, but then again, it could be making the axis more OP... Hmmm, I'm torn on this one :/

[IJoe]

No, No, No, and NO again.
Axis are already OP as is, and were that from the very start, so now, when they finally got some very fair nerfs, it shouldn't be just rolled back, because people are so used to them being OP.
That's my very own personal view on the situation.

Nobody said something about rolling the nerfs back. It's just about tier 2 snipers who cost 340 mp to not be able to insta-gib a doctrinal end game unit which can't move and costs 400mp/75 fuel + 10 or 12 pop. AT-guns destroy the flak in 2 hits, snipers currently unman it instantly, artillery deals high damage against it, mortars also and so on...

Personally, I would make difference in reinforcement cost for them (80 for the spotter, 320 for the sniper), and move arty to some after additional armory upgrade, or after tank depo is built. And the cost could be 380.
But that's without some sniper's rate of fire and spotter critical chance nerfs, that are already done, and no health reduction as well.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Personally, I would make difference in reinforcement cost for them (80 for the spotter, 320 for the sniper), and move arty to some after additional armory upgrade, or after tank depo is built. And the cost could be 380.

I didn't talk about the soviet snipers specially. Just that allied snipers (US & soviet) are basically tier 2 (second building you build) units, not that they are two units.

[IJoe]

Well, 88, being extremely, almost overwhelmingly powerful AT should have this weakness, IMO. And it's counterable anyway.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Well, 88, being extremely, almost overwhelmingly powerful AT should have this weakness, IMO. And it's counterable anyway.

When patch is going life there's no incentive to go defensive doctrine anymore.

Artillery? - Terror's comes earlier and is better. (Firestorm 3 CP, can be used anywhere, deals damage over time for 160 ammo. Def only got registered arty which can only be used on allied flags [dont get me wrong, its useful, but not for attacking) Firestorm can be used everywhere for attack AND defense.

Fortify a VP with 88? Well, King Tiger is an 88 on wheels that can move out of arty barrages and can't be decrewed. It comes some cp later though. Still, he's effective against tanks and infantry, so he's more useful than the 88.

And Terror with Tiger Ace (which is essentially a Geschützwagen on crack. I've played during vCoH times and used the Ace quite frequently so I should know) totally overshadows the whole defensive doctrine.
EDIT: Oh and I forgot: The 88 looses frequently to fireflies, pershings, and even shermans if you don't abuse its maximum range, and even then the combo

2 shermans -> drive to 88 -> pop arty (offmap or calliope) on it -> drive damaged sherman back -> mop up the axis mgs and rush in with infantry worked everytime to destroy/capture an 88 which was not vet 3.


For the Fatherland is nice, but it's not an ability I would sacrifice my doctrine for, especially not if I have the choice to get the same than 88 + arty in better from another doctrine.

EDIT: and well - fortified bunkers are bleh. Imo most US players simply were too stupid to fight them properly, but that's just my opinion. To fight against US as Wehr I didn't need the improved ones. Tbh, I rarely even built bunkers. And when I did the normal bunkers with terror worked fine for me.

Now the "noob factor" for the stronger defensive bunkers also has gone.

And well... PE Flak 88 - I've actually only seen PE building a 88 in 2 competitive games, and that was during 2.301 when PE was so OP it didn't make a difference.

So for now: HEROIC CREWS FOR 88 (Wehr & PE) and Flakvierling (PE).
There could be considered giving the 105mm Howitzer heroic crews also.

[GodlikeDennis]

I actually support this. Flaks are vastly underused in a competitive game because they are so incredibly easy to counter and are only useful against tanks, which don't see too much action against Wehr superior AT anyway and especially not in competitive VP matches. Also, sniping base flaks is incredibly lame for the PE player.

[IJoe]

Making them more useful?
Then what's the corresponding buff (because it will be an axis buff, undoubtedly) for the counterparts.
Yeah, people don't usually send tanks to fight 88, they'd rather switch to infantry. This means, they are more than successful in performing their duties (which is "creating the no-tank zone"), right?

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Making them more useful?
Then what's the corresponding buff (because it will be an axis buff, undoubtedly) for the counterparts.
Yeah, people don't usually send tanks to fight 88, they'd rather switch to infantry. This means, they are more than successful in performing their duties (which is "creating the no-tank zone"), right?

Actually, not.

2 shermans (if he does not scouts even 1 Sherman can be enough)
-> drive to 88
-> pop arty (offmap or calliope) on it
-> drive damaged sherman back
-> mop up the axis mgs and rush in with infantry
-> move shermans in and attack the gun (press a+ leftclick on unmanned gun. Even if he remans the 88 it will still die. And the def player probably loose the game)

(alternative: use mortar + smoke and demolish the supporting stuff
with rangers)

worked everytime for me to destroy/capture an 88 which was not vet 3. I think in all my game time (since ~ 2005) I've seen like 10 people building a eighty-eight in a ranked match. I myself have built like 25. I rarely play defensive, just for the plain reason: it sucks. I don't need bunkers, and I don't need an AT gun which crew can be farted at and dies so I have a constant mp drain just to keep it working.

Like I said: When retail 2.700 arrives, nobody will play defensive anymore, since terror got everything defensive got in a better version.

[GodlikeDennis]

It doesn't make an entire faction OP because one UP end doctrine unit is buffed to make it actually usable in a competitive game. There is no need for a "counter buff" for the enemy factions. My point was that there are rarely allied tanks on the field in a 1v1 anyway most of the time and the occasions there are, axis AT is good enough already rather than building this massive waste of resources. 2v2ATs it becomes more useful but is still countered incredibly easily, especially by snipers which are the mainstay of most American combos.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

It doesn't make an entire faction OP because one UP end doctrine unit is buffed to make it actually usable in a competitive game[...] especially by snipers which are the mainstay of most American combos.

Exactly my point. Thanks.

[IJoe]

Surely 88 are not the reason, why I, personally, consider axis to be OP,- it's the sum of superb armor, AT (paks and shreks), and rather sustainable infantry, which literally forces people to play "noobish" (stupid blobbing etc.), because some proper style of play becomes increasingly ineffective.
I, personally, find some particular axis units to be too spammable, while being too good. This especially, in 2v2 and larger games, truly becomes an issue (when PE starts spamming hetzers, f.e.)
If you want to make 88 more resilient to infantry, then make it less effective against armor. That story about "OK, now: build a huge army, and beat the crap out of that 88" is plenty entertaining, really.

[GodlikeDennis]

Hetzer spamming? Really? You must be an even worse player than I thought if you're losing to Hetzer spam.

You don't need to build a massive army to counter 88s. By the time they arrive you already have one. 2 snipers, an almost essential component against defensive players anyway because of zombie grenspam, instantly neuter the 88 and leave it vulnerable to an infantry or tank rush. Arty from infantry doc, which you will probably go against defensive players, means almost certain death for the crew and vulnerability again.

Your argument of blobbing for Wehr is false. They don't receive any statistical benefit from blobbing like Brits or PE. Sometimes blobbing is a legitimate tactic against those who are ill prepared - maximising firepower at a single location. Most of the time however, dynamic play is more effective unless you lack the micro to control all your units.