[1.3.1.0] The recent conscript fix

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

He wasn't the best player, duel capping squads under fire, cqc with G43, failing to retreat, some dodgy manoeuvring with the HT. After watching 2v3 (2xPE vs 2xSov 1xBrit) Sublime replay I'm more than convinced that the PE can handle the Soviets no problem when played correctly.

True, that guy really was not a 12azor, but still, he had ~ 30 ranked matches, with actually decent stats. It's not really reasonable that I could bash him that hard, especially when I'm playing against a PE player first time with Soviets...

Watched first 10 minutes of the 2v3 game -

1.) It was a team game, so the game is way more focused on lategame, where PE shines due to various inf upgrades and strong veterancy.

2.) the PE players were clearly a LOT better than the soviets, that's why they won the match. I seriously doubt they would've won that match if the enemy players would've known what they were doing.

3.) You can't really compare team gameplay to 1vs1 situations.

Like I said, I'm not completely sure about my point and need some further investigation regarding this topic. But apparently, there seems to be a problem.

However, if you're interested we can play some games tomorrow and investigate

[GodlikeDennis]

I find the problem of PE vs Russians to be based around the current Soviet OP units: T90, SU85, ss team, kat. Apart from that it's a fairly even game. PGs stand up fine against Russian infantry unless the CS gets some lucky PG instant kills. G43s are a bad upgrade, i never get them.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I find the problem of PE vs Russians to be based around the current Soviet OP units: T90, SU85, ss team, kat. Apart from that it's a fairly even game. PGs stand up fine against Russian infantry unless the CS gets some lucky PG instant kills. G43s are a bad upgrade, i never get them.

And I think that the t70, t90 and SU-85 are OP because they come ~ 2-3 minutes too early. Which is IMO a result of soviets being able to capture extremely fast like the USA, combined with the command squad being as tough as a british tommie squad.

Technically its like a british who starts with a vanilla tommie squad and can train cheaper riflemen to capture the map.

Once again I played some PE guy. He used his pgs together earlygame and even used cover, but still had 0 chance against 1 conscript + command squad.

Thereafter I just kept capping everything and got a t90.

[IJoe]

I find the problem of PE vs Russians to be based around the current Soviet OP units: T90, SU85, ss team, kat. Apart from that it's a fairly even game. PGs stand up fine against Russian infantry unless the CS gets some lucky PG instant kills. G43s are a bad upgrade, i never get them.

No offense, but I recall you saying, soviets are OK, but for the snipers. Now you're like listing half the faction, and calling it OP...
I'm getting lost with your witness.

[GodlikeDennis]

Actually T70's pretty crap, T90 is OP because of it's damage output and SU-85 penetrates near 100% of the time on any tank at any range.

I believe another core issue is that that conscripts had their penetration buffed a couple patches ago in response one of the tourney final matches where IHT spam won the game for the PE player. This was a knee jerk reaction and unnecessary because THs dominate PE light vehicles except the AC and come sooner than even the IHT. At the moment, the basic rifles have too great penetration vs the light vehicles.

I think PGs fight the early Soviet units quite well actually.

I find the problem of PE vs Russians to be based around the current Soviet OP units: T90, SU85, ss team, kat. Apart from that it's a fairly even game. PGs stand up fine against Russian infantry unless the CS gets some lucky PG instant kills. G43s are a bad upgrade, i never get them.

No offense, but I recall you saying, soviets are OK, but for the snipers. Now you're like listing half the faction, and calling it OP...
I'm getting lost with your witness.

Opinions change as you play more games. T90 has too much damage output, SU-85 penetrates everything all the time and kat comes slightly too early but is statistically fine (perhaps does too much damage to tanks but this needs more testing and is rarely an issue anyway). None of these are issues though because all of them are being addressed next patch.

[Zerstörer]

I believe another core issue is that that conscripts had their penetration buffed a couple patches ago in response one of the tourney final matches where IHT spam won the game for the PE player. This was a knee jerk reaction and unnecessary because THs dominate PE light vehicles except the AC and come sooner than even the IHT. At the moment, the basic rifles have too great penetration vs the light vehicles.

That's not quite the whole story to be fair.

The pen of the rifles was originally the same as that of all the other rifles, but at the time(cough..1.00) you had about 6-8 conscript squads+ 2 engies+ command squad running around in the firs 4-5 mins, meaning any salvo from that many troops insta killed a PE vehicle. That's when we nerfed the guns hard.

Now that we've dealt with the conscript spam, we've simply amended it back to what it should be, which is to match M1 rifle pen vs light vehicles.

Given that a conscript squad has 4xD10 riles while a US squad has 6xD10 and by the time an AC/halftrack hits the field there are usually 4 riflemen and 1 Command squad+ 3-4Conscripts, the potential damage output is the bigger for the US, but adding the possible 2 squads of engies on each side and it all balances out.

PE light vehicles have alot more room and are more forgiving when fighting soviets, as there are no BARs or stickies

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Therefor you have AT-guns or Tank Hunters alot earlier.
But I still say: reduce either command squad battle effectiveness or lower the capping speed for command squad and ingenery OR for conscripts.

I really think this will fix a lot of problems.

[Zerstörer]

Therefor you have AT-guns or Tank Hunters alot earlier.
But I still say: reduce either command squad battle effectiveness or lower the capping speed for command squad and ingenery OR for conscripts.

I really think this will fix a lot of problems.

That's getting into the 'if I get this unit' argument...
You won't have the resources for those units at that stage and you're more likely to get them at a stage where Bars/stickies/airborne/rangers allow the US player to fend off the PE vehicles as much as an AT squad might fend them off. Early AT gun is a bad choice vs PE cause you can't guard it with sticky armed riflemen and you have no BARs

[IJoe]

Yep. AT gun and TH are two separate upgrades, and TH also perform rather poorly without yet another upgrade.

[GodlikeDennis]

Riflemen have to get up close to do real damage to the PE vehicles though. Conscripts, being more accurate at range, can nail a vehicle from anywhere. From just playing games, I'm noticing very often that 3 squads of conscripts will obliterate an AC or IHT from long range, even while I'm kiting at max range.

I'm not asking that they be invulnerable, just that their long range penetration be revised. Having a lone AT gun is more effective against PE than say Pumas because nobody will want to run into an infantry blob with ACs just to kill it because they are still vulnerable compared to a puma.

[RedGuard]

is that true Conscripts are more accurate long range compared to  riflemen?  I'm skeptical

good thing to know though if its true.

[GodlikeDennis]

Actually riflemen are more accurate. What I should have said are conscripts have a greater damage output at long range because riflemen have a very long cooldown. Conscripts have bolt action rifles like volks which fire at a pretty similar rate across all distance. Riflemen as we all know are good up close because they have great close range cooldown modifiers.

[RedGuard]

heh well whatta ya know

Im so used to playing Ami I still charge everything with Soviet infantry. and yeah I just looked in corsix conscripts and strelky actually excel at long range

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Its interesting that 224 mp conscripts win against unvetted grenadiers which are t2 and cost 300mp.

Option 1a) Either reduce their capping speed or
Option 1b) their damage output or
Option 1c) increase their cost + buildtime

Further proposed fixes:
Option 2) nerf the command squad size to 3 men and increase buildtime
Option 3) Nerf command squad capping speed and increase its buildtime significantly.

At least under current circumstances. We need to see how the beta 2.700 changes alter the Wehr gameplay.

[IJoe]

I don't fallow, what the CS has got to do with conscripts.
These latter have disadvantages as well:
1) they never vet,
2) they can't re-crew,
3) they can't be upgraded with any weapons, but molotovs, but this will abolish their production,
4) they have a build limit of up to 5 squads on the field at any given time.
Post Merge: April 24, 2011, 07:01:58 PMAs for "solutions", of all possible nerfs, if these are to be performed, I would prefer to see conscript squad reduction to four men with rifles.