[1.3.1.0] The recent conscript fix

[Joshua9]

While I appreciate the sensible conscript change that prevented  weaponless russian units from rushing forward when attacking, at least conceptually,

I've found that it has once again altered the balance that had finally matured in the matches me and my friend have been playing, with the only real difficulties being

*badass tank-hunters(3 of these base-line anti-tank,  units-vetted can still own a king tiger through front armor by the way, which I find somewhat disturbing-but right now I'm just referring to their infantry effectiveness which was slightly reduced),

T-90 armor(thankfully reduced to a reasonable level)

and su-85's/100's which seem to have too much splash damage...either that or are just too fast(i'd be happy if they were slower to accelerate, making it less of a given that they wil escape from harm,as well as from units attempting to flank)

surprisingly though, even given the changes to snipers and t-90's and tank hunters, that conscript change has outweighed them all.

Pre-patch I was capable of applying pressure, being the agressor early..

post patch, 2 volks vs 2 224 cost conscript squads, may be a win, but a painful one, especially if I am the one forced to engage.  These guys just chew units up when they are set, and with the help of ingenery, which add a nice ammount of damage to their attacks, Pe like staggered tactics are very effective at holding points, and bleeding off mp.

The problem with not engaging, with not pushing, is that it is a given now that my friend can almost immediately build an outpost on a medium fuel early with little consequence, and a depletion to his force that doesn't matter siginificantly to his ability to apply pressure to me. 

The world is his oyster.  Early snipers wreak havvoc and as far as I can tell, if he gets an early t-90 out when I have no standing counter to it, it is game over.  the impact is far more severe than an early m-8.  one shrek squad is just an appetizer...volks die so fast thatt hey won't be standing to add any fausts to the equation.  a sigle storm squad won't fare well either. (these are all units that can effectively ward off or at least stagger an m8.) 

So, while both snipers and t-90's were brutal in the previous build, at least then I was able to be up in my enemy's shit...which really took a bite out of the speed at which these units arrived, and their effectiveness when they did.

I'm fine with this more balanced early game between factions, but if it's going to stay that way, it feels like these other units need to be recosted slightly to account for that stronger early map presence.  And rather than in the upgrade, I think that it shold be in the per unit cost.  once these t-090's start lolling off the line, I can sometimes expect to face 3..if I didn't have enough at when that first one hit, the I certainly won't by the time they're all out.

[RedGuard]

king tiger has 2000 hit points if your losing a king tiger to 3 tank hunters squads your using the king tiger wrong. A lot of the less skilled players seem to think the king tiger should beat any and everything when in reality nothing in this game does that.
remember to keep pios around to repair your KT as well, even 2-3 vet2 pio squads would have dispatched  the tank hunter squads and sent them packing

Keep king tiger supported or its a sitting duck, if you expect it to prospper unsupported you dont understand the mechanics of this game.

su-85 speed is fine, its supposed to be faster than other tanks, because its not a tank its a tank destroyer. which were designed to be faster than tanks so they could pursue and out maneuvre them, and destroy them.

Would you mind sharing your ladder rank with us so we can get a better feel of your overall understanding of the game? 

[Joshua9]

check,  not using it right....

of that I have no doubt, but would you say that its even possible for 3 ranger squads to take out a kt?(it wasn't all I had originally by the way, but the ammount of artillery on top of everything else gets pretty funny, so that's what was left in that engagement)  how long do you think it would take for rangers to take it out?  tank hunters are really cheap overall...they don't require the kind of investment grens do to be long term effective...they are more fragile, but they can really dish it out. 

I don't really want to distract too much from my real complaint though, because while I think its kind of crazy that tank-hunters can do this it isn't particularly related to my balance complaint.

as to my level, sure...

I play pretty unconventionally, and not particularly inspired at that, so my ranking is not superb...i've bounced between 10 and 11, trying to get ridiculous things like 1 engie sniper starts to work against pe, and forward hq starts against wehr(actually those brought me all the way back down to like 8 )

point is, my friend is pretty much in the same boat.  across the board we've pretty much been able to keep a nice ebb and flow...and as I said, we've been able to extend that to eastern front, after I made some much needed adjustements in play.

given that we've been playing this for a while, and given that we are both at equal skill levels, and given that while he is infinitely better than me with wehr(since I rarely play it, except for against russia) and my rudimentary russia does such a number on him as well)

it very well may be that these factions are balanecd, but in terms of skill level, it must be infinitely easier to play russia than Wehrmacht, at least at the level we are playing at. 

My contention is that this issue has really arisen from the conscript change, because I see enemy snipers or t-90's hitting the field faster now, not slower, because the russian player can do more with less than he could before.


as to the su-85's, i'm strictly speaking about balance.  These beasts have an achiles heal that is their absolute rear armor, which I find easy to exploit with upgunned pumas, but not particularly helpful for my grens who get eaten up overly effectively when a few of these are in a line shooting..  Like I said, I would take the acceleration change...i'd probably just prefer the splash damage nerf.

oh, I also find the detection range on the command squad to be really obnoxious for dispatching snipers, often with just random fire as soon as the sniper is spotted.  I understand that this is the only detection unit that russia seems to have(if there's another i'm not sure what it is ), but the range seems really extreme for a unit that is a staple for every rush.  I would prefer it be in line with recon squads, or at least somewhere inbetween.  of course, if that's where it already is please excuse the poor observation in the midst of my button mashing and hair pulling

[RedGuard]

In all actuality Wehr is the easiest faction to play. Given their core mechanics. They dont need to rush or be aggressive and they dont need to actually kill anything to get vet. very novice friendly. Not to mention all of their units are the most survivable in the game.

Soviets have to be one of the hardest factions to use, next to the PE.

One more thing, 2 volks squads should always beat 2 conscript squads just focus fire the first squad closest to you on the charge goodluck comrade

[Joshua9]

would absolutely love to see some replays of you playing as wehr against russia so that I could pick up some tips

[RedGuard]

I have a few replays on gamereplays.com just search chris0316
there mostly american though so i doubt that will help. I played american before my defection to the Communist liberators

anyway I'd be glad to play a friendly game online with u if u want. I'll be wehr and U can be Soviets? and save the replay and watch

[Joshua9]

I should actually set you up to play my friend.  he's the one playing russia more frequently.  I've only played it about 4 times since the patch.  I expect you to beat him, but I'd get far less out of you beating me.  I currently wouldn't be near efficient enough with them to be scary.


I'd still be up for a game, though not tonight..barely hanging on.  my game name is josh9

[RedGuard]

Sounds good Comrade, Im adding you now look for me on your friends list 

[Zerstörer]

1) Trying to counter a tank hunter like the SU with a puma, is like trying to counter an M10 with a puma. Puma at best will do a little bit of damage before it goes down.
The SU have piss poor health meaning paks and shrecks can very easily shred them. 3 shots with either one. Even fausts are a big issue because of their few hitpoints

Conscripts can countered by MGs and even bikes/swim. MP40 volks and/or flamer does a number on them. In fact a flamer is a must, just like a flamer is a must for US troops facing WH/PE

[IJoe]

Theoretically, puma up-gunned, should be able to circle-strafe a single SU, but practically few would let that to happen.

[GodlikeDennis]

T90s have barely any AoE. Their gun is identical to a PE AC except with a longer burst duration and shorter reload. I actually agree that they're a little too good. Their damage should be reduced slightly.

SU-85 splash is being taken away next patch.

I cannot stress how important MP40s are against conscripts. I personally forgo flamers (unless he really likse buildings) and go for as many MP40s as possible. As for the first few engagements, remember to focus fire with your volks on the most vulnerable conscript squad. MG should be used to remove the CS from the fight while your superior volks demolish his conscripts.

[IJoe]

I already stopped using t-90, except for some rare occasions of pio spam. That signifies, how relatively ineffective the thing has become. Why nerf it further? For what reasons? It's already a whole lot worse than puma.

[Zerstörer]

To be fair T90 damage output is currently higher than a vet3 puma, more hit points and less speed ,so yeah it is a bit too good and certainly not inferior to the Puma.
We're reducing the damage and increasing the Acc. Incremental so it punishes blobs a bit more

T90 really shines when you get it to vet2/3

[IJoe]

While the sum of all possible parameter of T-90 can be greater than that of puma, the actual battle performance is not math only  T-90 can never dream of one-shot killing a trooper, unless he's already almost dead.
The accuracy increase, even with some damage nerf, might prove beneficial and quite in place, since low accuracy, IMO, was massively due to the OP great suppression provided, now gone.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I think the main problem is:

Conscripts fight just as well with 8 guys as with 4 people, because only 4 people got a gun.

while when a Volks/pg squad looses a man the combat efficiency drops by 20% / 33%.

And since now with the conscript change the non-weapon conscripts die slower since they also stay in cover. Volks / pgs are worse at fighting them, resulting in conscripts being overall stronger than before.

I'd recommend either slower capping (best choice imo) or a tweak to conscript health. But considering STGs and mp40s shread conscripts the last option is not a good idea.

On the t90:

I've noticed that Panzerfausts (the ability from Volks) does really low damage to those kind of tanks. It looks like you need 4 fausts to kill it while most other light vehicles (stuart, m8) require 2-3 fausts.

Maybe its a good idea to investigate how buffing the panzerfaust would affect the "shock value" of the t90.