[1.3.1.0] isu-152 nerfed?

[AllRoundGoodEgg]

Did the 'animal killer' get a nerf in the last patch? I ask because I fielded it tonight and it lost (big time) 1 vs 1 against a panther. Scratching my head, I played one again the next game and found it took seven hits to finish off a Panzer IV infantry support tank.

A couple of things I noticed:

The isu-152 seems slower than before. A little faster than the kv-2 (thank God!), but still like watching treacle moving on the battlefield.

Its fire rate feels like it halved over night. This is a major factor in its loss of effectiveness... it takes so damn long to fire now.

Its accuracy is terrible. 50% hit rate against a target that's right in front of it on the flat. I counted, and my isu-152 fired 14 shots at that infantry support panzer, but only 7 hit home (the seventh killed it finally).

The armor penetration seems to have dropped dramatically. 7 hits to kill a panzer IV... don't recall that before. And against the panther it was downright painful to see the tiny amount of damage each hit did. They're pretty graphics for a very big explosion, but it just feels like it's another artillery piece on a tank and we've got a second kv-2 now. And we all know how many people put those on the field.

For 800 manpower and a top-of-tree unit, it's feeling mighty weak to me. In all honesty, the is-2 is a much better bet to go killing animals. I'm not saying it couldn't have done with a bit of toning down. It was a little too mighty before, but now... I hadn't played this unit for a while (weeks, for certain), and I'm not likely to play it again any time soon, just like the kv-2.

The Red Tide 'population cap flood' strategy is fast becoming the run away most effective top-of-tree ability in my opinion. Super sniper has his place and is fun to play (kudos on creating an interesting new unique unit), but he's a bit too fragile against serious opposition.

And yes, it's just my opinion, but I wanted to say something and see what others think. After all, that's what the forums are for, to give the devs some feedback on our experiences.

[Ghost]

*ISU-152 barrage cooldown doubled. Also added a cost per use at 40 munitions.
* ISU-152 can no longer fire immediately after its barrage ability has been used.
* ISU-152 damaged attuned to a more reasonable level.

changelog. these changes were necessary after some bugs with damage(=insane) and barrage (shoot immediately after using it). there's nothing in the changelog about speed or accuracy changes though.

[Blackbishop]

Indeed, there wasn't any other change of ISU-152's stats besides the ones mentioned by @Ghost.

[RedGuard]

well yeah since it got nerfed(too hard) just spam tank hunters! and arty!

soviets can always improvise

[AllRoundGoodEgg]

I totally agree, REDcommisar. Improvisation is one of the joys of the Soviet forces.

Interestingly, I'd never toyed with the barrage ability... maybe I should have before the changes. Sounds like insane levels of carnage. An occasional use, 40 munitions, no fire immediately afterwards type of barrage sounds more useful as a 'neat extra' of a vehicle that's solid even without it.

"Damage attuned to a more reasonable level" seems odd, though. Not that it shouldn't have reasonable damage (obviously, everything in the game should be reasonable so it's balanced), but it seems like it deals huge splash damage that wipes stacks of infantry and buildings - a giant artillery shell, effectively, like the KV-2 - but its armor penetration is very poor. What this means is that there are two vehicles in the doctrines that fulfil exactly the same role and nothing in there for superior anti-tank warfare.

Historically - and I'm aware from the slapping I got on another thread about this, so historical 'accuracy' is obviously central to the philosophy of this mod -historically the ISU-152 was a very feared tank destroyer. As per Wikipedia:

"The ISU-152 could also operate as an effective heavy tank destroyer. Though it was not designed for the role, the vehicle inherited the nickname Zveroboy ("beast killer") from its predecessor, the SU-152, for its rare ability to reliably kill the best protected German fighting vehicles, the Panther tank, the Tiger and King Tiger tanks, and even the Elefant and Jagdtiger tank destroyers."

So there are two things going on in my mind. First, the Soviet doctrines seem to have two near-identical options, the KV-2 and ISU-152. They look different, but in practice they fulfil the exact same role. Second, performance on the field doesn't seem to catch the same feel as historically would have happened. After all, if I'm playing Germans I can't see my tank commanders greatly fearing the ISU-152... just send a Panther and it's toast.

What does this boil down to? In mind mind, an imbalance in the faction. The Axis are strong in vehicles. The Soviets have Tank Hunters and AT guns, but both are heavily vulnerable to regular anti-infantry tactics. A sniper, a mortar, an MG... easy enough for the Soviet anti-tank threat to be removed. There's no anti-tank armor from the doctrines but two mobile artillery pieces. Yes, there's the IS-2, but since many people agree it's overpowered for a non-doctrine unit, I'm expecting that to get a tweak in a patch soon.

My thought is to switch and have the IS-2 (without nerfs) as the Tiger equivalent in one of the doctrines, unlocked at the top of a tree, and to have the ISU-152 back in the non-doctrine vehicle list. The Soviets were known for their huge artillery shells, so let's have one of the two artillery-slingers (ISU-152 or KV-2) available to all Soviet commanders to blow away fixed defences and bases. And take the IS-2 to its rightfully exalted place as a special doctrine unit, top of tree. Then cheapen the SU-100 upgrade, which is simply more expensive than most people are willing to pay right now (it's 255 fuel before you can even field your first one, right?), and let that become the default tank killer as it should be.

I just feel that would balance the Soviets better against the Axis. My 2 cents.

[RedGuard]

I believe they are doing something with the su-100 because it definately needs a price decrease. I still think isu152 needs some kind of cool down decrease or something its just a sitting duck unless it has an entire army supporting it 

anyway while we're on the subject which tank is statistically superior isu152 or kv2?

[GodlikeDennis]

They're both very different vehicles. ISU is better. Contrary to what has been said, the ISU is actually very good against vehicles and will easily dominate a panther from the front. The artillery shots are just for potentially nailing a pak before you move it in to destroy a bunker or finish off a low health tank. Just a cool extra for an already powerful unit.

[AllRoundGoodEgg]

I might have been unlucky against that Panther, but I ran a couple more tests last night and each time a modest opposition wiped the ISU-152. First time was against a Panzer IV and a squad of Wehrmacht panzerfaust grenadiers (net result, grenadiers lost but not the Panzer IV, though it was almost dead). Second time against a Panther and a Puma (net result, Panther destroyed but Puma finished off the ISU-152).

"...the ISU is actually very good against vehicles and will easily dominate a panther from the front."

I'm not disputing your experiences, just offering my own as well, GodlikeDennis.

[RedGuard]

Wow yeah when I said that isu152 gets dominated if not supported by a full army I guess you took me literally? dont ever send any armor alone, and you shouldnt have lost isu152 to those tanks unless you were giving up rear armor

[AllRoundGoodEgg]

It was a test of the ISU-152, rather than a map I was trying to win. And it was all being micro-managed by me to make sure the front armor was showing almost all of the time. I didn't just leave the tank alone with the enemy and let the AI run it.

There's always random chance in any battle, so it's possible I'm merely unlucky, but that's four tests in a row that haven't gone in favor of the ISU-152.

[GodlikeDennis]

Just did some testing of the ISU. 2 hits bunkers, 2 hits stugs, 1 hits pumas unless they get a weapon/engine destroyed critical. Went toe to toe with a KT but lost with the KT having around 1/4 health left. Demolished infantry squads when it hit. Pretty good weapon all round. The arty has a pretty long cooldown. It doesn't really need to cost munitions per use.

[RedGuard]

whats the cooldown on the isu-152?

[AllRoundGoodEgg]

Yeah, infantry and buildings are easy targets for an ISU-152. It's the armor penetration that I'm not seeing. Very inaccurate (misses the vehicle as often as it hits), and perhaps that's the problem. It might one hit a Puma, but it takes two shots to do that hit (Puma takes 6 shots in the same time). Two-hit a Stug? That's four shots to get those hits. Stug gets 8 shots in the same time. I think that's why it isn't winning as much as you'd imagine. Such a slow fire rate is a major drawback.

That, and I didn't get as good results against armor as you, it seems. Panzer IV and (especially) Panthers seem to be able to take a bunch of hits.

I'm not getting into the barrage ability here - haven't tested that.

[RedGuard]

Yeah I mean im well above average in skill level and If im facing the isu152 its only ever going to get the first shot off against my armor after that the cooldown is so long im outta there, and so are the rest of the competent MP players. thats my point it may 2 shot a stug but thats only if the stugs sitting there idle while it misses a few times in the 3 minutes it will take to cycle through all those rounds.

It seems isu152 is suited to a support role. its not going to win you the game unless you have a multitude of combined arms and support options. having said that its great to lead that final push on a floundering and already beaten enemy.

Not really a front line slugger. the rate of fire is too predictable and easily avoided. very situational

[GodlikeDennis]

I'm not seeing the lack of accuracy you are describing. I only missed one or two shots against Pumas, Stugs and the KT. You clearly had really bad luck. Burst damage is better than sustained damage anyway. If you get some other weapon to take off half of the Stug's health the ISU is intant kill from there. Also, the ISU isn't terribly slow either, so it's possible to still chase the enemy down. If all else fails, use arty where you think he's retreating to.