[1.3.0.2]The all powerfull Mosin

[Paciat]

I allways belived that Soviet Strelky rifle stats are copied Garand stats with minor changes.

Suprise
The dmg of the Mosin is 12 and the long range accuracy is 0,5 compared to 0,35 of the M1 and 0,45 of the Gren k98.
I wont just say "nerf the Mosin", I wanted an opinion first.
Did you got raped as Germans by long range Mosin fire just becouse you didnt build a Med bunker?
Can youre MP40 Volks get close to a Strelky squad without being raped (just like they would with a US squad)?

IMO Mosin should get a dmg Nerf (10dmg), the Strelky global upgrade should be cheaper, DP-28 should cost 50 ammo while PPSH 100ammo (or even 125ammo so that 7 men PPSH wont be spammable). NKVD rifles should be more powerfull to (8 or 9dmg) since they are a joke compared to a squad that can retreat, has more HP and costs only 40MP more.

I also wanted to start a discussion about PTRD squads. 8 pop cap is really a bad nerf. Why not just give PTRD teams shitty constript rifles and maybe raise their reinforce cost?

[Seeme]

I hate the 8 PopCap. Before they were spam able. Now there a waste of Popcap. I thought tank hunters were used in large numbers, 2 or 4?
8 is to much, I would prefer 6 so I can build at least 3 before I reach 20 cap, with is a third of my force.

I didn't think of mosins as op. Though am guessing now they might be since all those people are carrying them.

[Blackbishop]

Now you mention it, I hardly can charge against Strelky with MP40 volks, but i thought it was bad luck xD. Also, always I'm raped as wehr(97% of the cases) i didn't build a med bunker.

Agree with nerf dmg && range acc of the Mosin.
I'm not sure about the DP-28 cost though, but you are the experts .
I agree with the PTRD suggestion. I think that's a good solution.
I agree with the NKVD proposal.

[IJoe]

IMO, unsuppressible NKVD (it's bugged, but said to be corrected in the upcoming patch) shouldn't receive any more firepower, than it does right now.
Strelky is not a unit you can build from the start (like US basic infantry), by the time you build them US would already have BARs. Besides, they are about totally useless against tanks (unlike US infantry). So, it seems fair to me, that their ranged fire is a bit more effective. And if you don't build med bunkers, while playing against soviets as wehr, then you are only to blame yourself, I think.
Considering tank hunters, my opinion: ATM they suck for their price (taking into account support barracks upgrade, that is required).

[SublimeSnugz]

Agree Strelky mosin nagant is abit too powerfull atm, ive seen Strelkys vaporize PE grens in matter of seconds.

[Paciat]

I didn't think of mosins as op. Though am guessing now they might be since all those people are carrying them.

They apear after 35 fuel so you can say that they should be better than M1s. But the dmg output is 47% higher than non BAR rifles (84 compared to 57) and the long range acc (the medium and short range acc are the same) is also more than 45% higher.

I allways thought Strelky as a spammable but realiable cheap infantry and usually they did what was expected of them. But come to think of it they could do much more than US infantry.

I dont want to nerf the long range acc and the dmg, just one of those 2.

I'm not sure about the DP-28 cost though, but you are the experts .

With the Mosin dmg nerf DP-28 squads wont be that efective. Thats why I want to see more of them. But the PPSH wont be affected by the nerf and thats why it should be expensive.

[cephalos]

What about that: decrease squad members to 6 ( for Strelky). It would be faaar easier to hide them ( operating with 7-men squad is quite difficult, not saying about finding cover for them; conscripts don't count; they will be dead anyways  ) and would decrease their firepower about 1/6.

Tank Hunters need total rebalance. 8 popcap for 4 men squad armed with 2 AT rifles which can't even scratch PzIV.... I'd have 4 men squad with camo, bundlet nade, 2 shrecks and far more health.

[GodlikeDennis]

Comparing THs to doctrinal stormies is foolish.

I agree only to the TH changes. I thought it very unusual to change them to 8 pop when the problem with their effectiveness stems from their excellent rifles. At the moment the unupgraded squads are essentially a PG squad + AT rifle with cheaper reinforce.

Strelky are not general purpose like riflemen and cannot harm vehicles. They are a little better than a base gren squad. They have far less health but more firepower. Perhaps they could be slightly reduced ranged accuracy to prevent a blob being good at all ranges. DPs are good IMO, roughly equivalent to brens but with a shitter ability. PPShs should probably have a cost increase by a bit.

NKVD being unsuppressible will be an excellent addition to your forces. Though they should make it still possible to build both units since they differ drastically in function.

I think the greater issue at the moment is the penetration increase of mosins against PE. Conscripts swarm towards halftracks and dominate them.

[Desert_Fox]

Honestly I never noticed all this power in Mosin Nagant, maybe because it's used by weak infantry (Conscript, NKVD and standard Strelky) and some good german inf + 1 MG42 can stop them easly.
I'm talking about in a good game (no spam, bridges, etc..).

But yes, with a Strelky spam it's very powerfull.

[Seeme]

I forgot.
Version Tag.

[Chancellor]

Probably nerf the Mosin only a little bit (not too much).  PPsH seem very strong too.  I suggest allowing them to drop like DPs in the future patch and also a slight nerf.  DPs seem fine to me.

[Paciat]

I forgot.
Version Tag.

Seeme did it.
Post Merge: March 10, 2011, 10:06:51 PM

DPs seem fine to me.

But their so late.
And everyone uses PPSH anyway. I just want them cheaper than PPSH. But I guess fixing that what isnt broken was never a priority.

[IJoe]

DPs seem fine to me.

But their so late.
And everyone uses PPSH anyway. I just want them cheaper than PPSH. But I guess fixing that what isnt broken was never a priority.

I would like to see some change in DP: FE give DP squads suppression ability, the one like guards have, or HMG-like. Just make them DP of some use, don't copy-paste BARs, since these are no real alternative to a decent machine-pistol (=sub-machine gun), that ppsh certainly is. Though this isn't any sort of top priority at all, of course.
Dropping ppsh would be nice, but game-breaking, since it would be the only droppable macine-pistol in the entire game, 'cause mp40 & thompsons are not, as well as mp43 sturmgever, which are very similar to machine-pistols game-wise.

[GodlikeDennis]

SMGs and assault rifles are not droppable for a reason. They are too common and the ground would be littered with them. Even if you reduced the drop rate, a single dropped weapon has nowhere near the effect that a dropped bazooka or LMG has.

DP is fine, could perhaps do with another ability since the current one stops movement which is more a detriment than benefit. PPSh needs cost increase to 80-100 munitions.

[Zerstörer]

Strelky are not general purpose like riflemen and cannot harm vehicles. They are a little better than a base gren squad. They have far less health but more firepower

And that is the reason for their Damage12 mosin, because they do drop like flies. We used to have them with Damage10 and they didn't even scratch Axis infantry before being wiped out.
Overall they are inferior to US rifles.

Tank hunter's pop was raised to 8 because they were too spamable which in turn made them numerous enough to be used as line infantry (they are supposed to have the damage 7 mosin) holding their own against axis troops let alone vehicles. A specialist unit like that can never be spamable as its open to abuse(much like rangers/airborne used to be before upkeep and reinforce increase). 2 units should be all you really need combined with the re-crewable AT gun
 
I'm not a fan of needing 3 squads of them just to hold off 1 PzIV. On the other hand, soviet infantry units should not feel expensive/elite really.
PPSh at 80-100muni is waaaaaay too expensive given the fragility of the squad carrying them. Spend 75muni on an Lmg and see how you stand up against a charge...

DPs/AT rifles will be drop in the next patch (trusting the coders did what they're supposed to do)