Supply Yard-like Upgrade for Soviets

[Chancellor]

Personally, I don't post here unless I truly think an idea is good.  Frankly, I think a lot of the suggestions are retarded, like the unlimited KT, explosive dog ones for example.

Here it is: Give the Soviets an upkeep reducing upgrade and/or some kind of manpower income increase or unit cost reduction upgrade.  The upgrade should be expensive, like the USA supply yard one.

Logic: Just like the Americans, the Soviets won not with skill, but with sheer numbers, and in some cases, superior technology.  The Soviets had even more men to expend and their tank horde was even more lethal than the US tank horde.

Before the Flaming Dogs Bark: I know I know, balance before realism, and I'd be the first person to agree, but it's just weird that late game USA can spam more riflemen than Soviets can spam Strelky, etc.

Implementation: Give this powerful upgrade option(s), further reduce Soviet veterancy bonuses to compensate balance-wise.  As long as the sniper team and more importantly the Katushka are nerfed sufficiently (these 2 units basically defy the quantity > quality mentality of the Soviet army, and from what I see in the future 1.310 log, the sniper nerfs are nowhere near sufficient, the katyshas need a CP increase or a simple switch with GoW in the tree to address the root problem that they come too early), I feel that with this powerful upgrade option for the Soviets, we'll see a lot more intense / 50-50 balanced in-game action featuring battles that are really close.

Conclusion: I feel that the Soviet faction design should be based around cheap mass infantry / cheap mass tanks.  Not by having 1-2 infantry units, 3 sniper teams, and 3 Katyshas as their entire (OP) army kicking the crap out of anything Axis has to offer.  If 3 sniper teams are making the backbone of your army instead of infantry like Strelky, there is something terribly wrong.  Watch the 1.302 replays before you bark.

Really think hard about this before sitting down in your armchair and typing on your keyboard.

[Shadowmetroid]

^This.

I agree.  In fact, I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree with your logic and possible implementation of this idea.  I can only say that I hope that others see the reasoning behind this as well.

You, sir, have +1 internets.

[GodlikeDennis]

I actually think the SU blob can be larger and angrier than US blobs already. It's just that the sniper is so damn OP at the moment that good players recognise this is the way to go. Also, there is always the point that focusing micro on a few good units is easier than focusing on lots of units which makes this even more prevalent.

Way back when the mod was newly released I suggested something similar to this. I believe it makes perfect sense for the Soviets to have some sort of income boost upgrades in the late game. You could simply call the upgrades Ural reinforcements and Far East reinforcements or something. Currently, late game Soviets are only powerful because of their fantastic tanks. Guards are good but not as good as knights cross for example. At the moment, Soviet strategy is a little linear since you should get snipers midgame and then tech for tanks when you can. Command squad vet only makes infantry builds slightly more attractive.

We have to see the effect of the sniper nerfs next patch before we can judge. While they don't look sufficient on paper, maybe ingame the effect will be larger than we can tell so far. We should jump on the sandbox Chancellor and test them out sometime.

[BurroDiablo]

I had a similar idea ages ago for the Soviets to upgrade an 'Ammo Dump' from the Armoury which reduces Muni upkeep slightly. However, if this was implemented, there are some further changes to the Soviets that I think should be implemented in order to stop them becoming overpowered late game, like an overhaul of the Propaganda doctrine.

Sandbox test of the sniper would be a good idea. I haven't tested the latest version on the Devbox, I seem to keep getting my ass handed to me by AI, maybe I should start looking for humans to test with

[Venoxxis]

^This.

I agree.  In fact, I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree with your logic and possible implementation of this idea.  I can only say that I hope that others see the reasoning behind this as well.

You, sir, have +1 internets.

This is right what i think as well. Cancellor is kinda right and im really happy to see other ppl facing and also realizing these problems. Also, this would add a lot more feeling. The statement about the sniper is correct as well. Something really has to be changes about these guys. atm, still, they are rediculously overpowered. That wont be changed by any little easing, meanwhile im absolutly sure about that. Something has to happen with these guys.

I had a similar idea ages ago for the Soviets to upgrade an 'Ammo Dump' from the Armoury which reduces Muni upkeep slightly. However, if this was implemented, there are some further changes to the Soviets that I think should be implemented in order to stop them becoming overpowered late game, like an overhaul of the Propaganda doctrine.
[...]

+1. (Keep) the balance!



Regards

[Blackbishop]

@Chancellor
woof woof !! I like your idea... there is an unused text "Petrolium Refinery" that could be used for that !! Unless someone comes up with a better name.

[BurroDiablo]

The Refinery idea was something that was to replace OPs before we decided Outposts were to take that role. There's still a few squares free in the Armoury, we should just use those... plus, saves us time when it comes to adding in our own buildings

[Blackbishop]

The Refinery idea was something that was to replace OPs before we decided Outposts were to take that role. There's still a few squares free in the Armoury, we should just use those... plus, saves us time when it comes to adding in our own buildings

Absolutely, i didn't think of it as a different and new building xD, i thought of it as an upgrade(i must say, i didn't think where could be placed) and i remember that unused text, so i proposed it as name xD... don't know if it fits.

[Chancellor]

Sorry if I'm breaking the rules of secrecy agreement, but this is the major issue I'm talking about in the coming 1.310 patch.

- Enemy snipers will automatically target the Sharpshooter over the Observer, unless specified to do otherwise.

If I click the sniper team (even the spotter) in the few seconds the sharpshooter reveals himself from cover or moves back, you can be damned sure I want to kill the sharpshooter, not the spotter.  In the heat of battle, I'm not going to have the sweet time of zooming in and figuring out who's who.  I'm guessing its hard to implement (code) with the 2 man team function, but it really must be done, or if it really becomes too hard to balance, then I highly recommend the single sniper like Wehr US ones instead

As for sniper team vs bike, I'm told EACH member of the sniper team gets the same amount of health as the US sniper.  So in effect, the team has 2x more health than a normal sniper.  This might be justified back in the days where Soviets could not retreat, but as of now I think the 2 members COLLECTIVE health needs to be the same as 1 US sniper's health.

For the Katyshas, they are not OP, but they simply come too early and make Wehr T2 and PE Pgrens useless when Axis is still heavily dependent on infantry.  There's a reason why Callipope, Hummel, and Priest come at the end of their respective doctrine trees.  Since GoW seems to be a medicore ability at best, I suggest switching it with Katyshas.

[IJoe]

"flaming dogs bark"...
(Note: no smileys added, so this doesn't seem to be a joke)

I feel a whole lot of respect from you going that way.

On the sniper issue, I do agree that "specify" thing looks more than doubtful, but, after all, what good are you, if you can't kill the right man, when you want to.
I wonder, if the simple limitation of no more than two teams at the field at a time would do. It pretty much should, since for a comparable price you could get three wehrmaht snipers (that vet along with mgs) that would most definitely counter their soviet counterparts any day of the week, if used properly.

[Blackbishop]

I don't know how much hp they got before but imho they could get 1.5(or something like that) times the sniper health instead of two(due to are two man squad). The health of an US sniper for the two soviets guys seems not enough . I think giving them 100HP would be enough.

Also, i'm just curious, why do you bring this here and not in the balance subforum created for these subjects?

[Chancellor]

I don't know how much hp they got before but imho they could get 1.5(or something like that) times the sniper health instead of two(due to are two man squad). The health of an US sniper for the two soviets guys seems not enough . I think giving them 100HP would be enough.

Also, i'm just curious, why do you bring this here and not in the balance subforum created for these subjects?

Because my last thread there got locked by...you know who   

If that thread wasn't locked, I would have posted there instead.  I don't want to keep starting new topics there and spamming the place.

I think it needs to be 1x normal sniper's health or its unfair to the bike and other small arms fire, etc.

But yea if we put it at 1x then one of the team members will probably be really weak and consistently die, needing manpower to reenforce all the time.  This is why 2 man sniper teams are so hard to balance, and why I recommend to just fall back to the standard 1 man sniper.

[Blackbishop]

Indeed, but making them one man is not an option. Perhaps it should get 1.2 more health(90hp, less than two rifles).

[Paciat]

Since GoW seems to be a medicore ability at best, I suggest switching it with Katyshas.

I like it.

I actually think the SU blob can be larger and angrier than US blobs already.

I liked the idea of Soviet supply upgrade before, but now SU has Command Squad vet witch works like Wehrmacht global vet. They shouldnt have both supply center upgrade and global vet.
As for a muni upkeep reduction upgrade... just build an outposton a muni point.

[Blackbishop]

Since GoW seems to be a medicore ability at best, I suggest switching it with Katyshas.

I like it.

I actually think the SU blob can be larger and angrier than US blobs already.

I liked the idea of Soviet supply upgrade before, but now SU has Command Squad vet witch works like Wehrmacht global vet. They shouldnt have both supply center upgrade and global vet.
As for a muni upkeep reduction upgrade... just build an outposton a muni point.

xD!!! I don't think that's enough to gain some extra munis .

Please check your PM(i just sent you one).