Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?

[IJoe]

If a T-34 series need something, that would be not a nerf, but a slight buff to acceleration and deseleration to increase it's battle performance.
After all, it's just not good, that these values are the same as ones of a panther (a much, much heavier tank): it's these that make the battle, not the speed (which, in turn, is OK ATM, I guess).

That was already done in 1.31 .

It was, but only to make it equal, somehow, while IMHO, T-34 should accelerate/decelerate faster.

[ForceMultiplier]

Perhaps a compromise is 50 fuel 100 munitions. (For T34/85 unlock).

It still means the first T34/85 costs you 135 fuel, but at least it doesn't gimp your munitions.

[IJoe]

Game-wise, and historically as well, there should not be many t-34/85s appearing, until some decent amount of panthers (starting at 3) hits the field.
So, if I were to suggest some reduction in the munition part of the cost (which I'm not sure is right), I would have to confide, that there would appear a necessity in a proportional increase of fuel (times 1.5/2, or so of that munitions amount reduced) cost of the upgrade for the matter of halting (relatively) early T-34/85 spam.
However, there seems to be a need of some change in the approach of T-34/85 entering the game, since it is rarely possible to field any significant amount of these even as a response to massive panther force,- at that stage most people find it way more appropriate and significantly less of a burden to the economy to field one, or two IS-2s (that is if they aren't just spamming SUs right from the start).
The exception to that would be a break-through doctrine, where the upgrade allows fielding tanks for free, on fuel account. But even then, most will just call in ISU, and punch with it through the enemy ranks (provided some TH and a couple of AI squads are there to support it).
Thus ATM it seems, that T-34/85 ends up heavily underused, which is sad.

P.S.: All that is not some sort of a truth in the last instance, but just my view of the situation at the current state of affairs.

[GodlikeDennis]

T34/85 is a fantastic tank, probably the best in the game overall, and doesn't really cost that much to tech to. 150MU doesn't matter because you're Soviets and 50FU is basically nothing. Wehr pays 80 for vet 2 tanks. People should stop complaining that the best tank in the game doesn't just fall into their hands.

[ForceMultiplier]

Sigh, I am not some kid saying: "Gimme T34/85's so I can winzz the game plzzz."

I'm trying to make the point (and IJoe seems to agree) that T34/85's are missing a place in real games. Theoretically they're great, and historically maybe we shouldn't see as many, but the point we're making is there is little reason to pay 135 fuel for your first one when you can get an IS2 instead.

Which is why I said I'm even happy to see the firepower reduced a little if it means they cost less to unlock. Right now I'd rather an IS2 and use the 150 munitions on the other million more useful things than go for T34/85's. (Which is a shame because they're such a nice tank).

I'd just like to see them being a staple in a soviet tank strategy rather than something that is best overlooked.

[RedGuard]

Sigh, I am not some kid saying: "Gimme T34/85's so I can winzz the game plzzz."

I'm trying to make the point (and IJoe seems to agree) that T34/85's are missing a place in real games. Theoretically they're great, and historically maybe we shouldn't see as many, but the point we're making is there is little reason to pay 135 fuel for your first one when you can get an IS2 instead.

Which is why I said I'm even happy to see the firepower reduced a little if it means they cost less to unlock. Right now I'd rather an IS2 and use the 150 munitions on the other million more useful things than go for T34/85's. (Which is a shame because they're such a nice tank).

I'd just like to see them being a staple in a soviet tank strategy rather than something that is best overlooked.

+1 point very valid, this couldnt be more true and its always ashame when a unit is not used because of some fault in pricing that is correctable

thats why i just mass t34/76s not really a reason to upgun them, when u can go is2 for same price

[thatguy]

thats why i just mass t34/76s not really a reason to upgun them, when u can go is2 for same price

Most players worth there salt as russians know that 2 T34/85 are actually just as effective as 2 ISU-122 because of the superior anti infantry and mobility. ISUs are nearly as sluggish as churchills, all they got is armour.

[GodlikeDennis]

IS2 also requires light tankovy 55FU which you are overlooking. Taken from the perspective of someone who has yet to build their tank depot:
IS2                                    T34/85                               Panther *assume already in skirmish phase
55 FU for TD                        55FU for TD (55)                  50FU for assault phase (50)
85FU for heavy tanks            85FU for heavy tanks (140)    50FU for battle phase (100)
55FU for light tanks (140)      50FU for T34 upgun (190)      50FU for PC (150)
135FU for tank (275)             85FU for tank (275)              110FU for tank (260)
135 for second tank (410)      85FU for 2nd tank (360)        110FU for 2nd tank (370)

Therefore pricewise 2 T34/85s<2 Panthers<2 IS2s which matches their combat effectiveness. The difference only increases as more tanks are produced. Realistically, the Wehr player must research skirmish phase and build a kriegs barracks which cost a total of 60FU while a Soviet player should research at least 1 of the support barracks upgrades which is 35FU. This creates a difference of 25FU which puts the first panther 10FU later than both IS2 and T-34/85. Both the IS2 and Panther cost a significant amount more MP than the T34 as well.

Personally I would only build IS2s if I had rushed light vehicles, in which case I already have the light tanks upgrade. Any situation involving teching up from a support barracks build and I would only research heavy tanks and start pumping out T34s.

[ForceMultiplier]

Your first two T34 85's cost manpower, 220 fuel and 150 munitions. You can't tell me that those resources aren't better used on something else?

I just love the tank so much, I want them to be more worthy of use

Let me just say something else, which is why these "tables" or crunching "numbers" is of little use...

You're in the heat of a fight, and you have some fuel to spend. The opposition already has panthers on the field. Are you honestly going to go go for a T34/85 upgrade, then build a T34/85 with your 135 fuel or are you going to go straight for your shiny new IS2?

You talk about the ability to build more T34/85's at a discount rate, but at the end of the day you can only build one tank at a time, and when we need the firepower on the ground you're going to go for that IS2. At least the IS2 can get straight into the action with more hope of surviving. We all know a lone T34/85 isn't going to survive long against even 1 panther.

So can we stop looking at this from a mathematical point of view and instead look at a "real game" situation, because don't forget, time is also money and I know i'd rather have an IS2 now than maybe 2 T34's in the "future."

[GodlikeDennis]

Munitions are negligible in the Soviet faction. 2 T34/85s cost less FU than 2 IS2s as well as vast amounts less manpower (especially since the light tanks upgrade costs around 200 from memory). Just the tanks cost 1200 MP whereas 2 T34s only cost 760. Therefore, T34s are better in a support barracks build where manpower is spent on support weapons, strelky and probably guards since you now have all 3 buildings. IS2s are more appropriate in a fast vehicle build since you would be more fuel restricted than manpower restriced and would likely be using (personally I would) sturmovie ingenery since they are MP cheap and can vent your spare munis. They are excellent troops that wouldn't require support barracks and are a counter to bunkers and paks that would be your LVs weakness. They can also repair all your vehicles easily.

EDIT: Alright, in a real game situation I would rather T34s even more. Mobility and anti-infantry effectiveness are key. If he had panther popped out I would have built AT guns as the counter rather than try a last minute tech to tanks. Also, your time argument is flawed. A T34 only requires the one upgrade but IS2s require both. Therefore, in the time taken to research both upgrades I have already built one T34 and have a 2nd on the way.

Your first two IS2s cost 1200MP, 270FU. You can't tell me those resources aren't better used on something else? Oh wait, I'd rather T-34s.

[RedGuard]

1.does anybody bother with su-100 upgrade? is the extra armor and penetration all that necessary?

2. whats better penetration on panthers the upgun t34/85 or the SU 85?

3.another question for the pros what wins in a straight shootout p4 or t34/76?

[GodlikeDennis]

1) No, that's why it's being removed/moved

2) The SU-85 ALMOST always penetrates panthers at every range. Only at long range there's around a 2% chance to not penetrate. T34/85 only penetrates around 43% of the time at long range.

3) T34/76 beats a P4 IMO. P4s sometime have a the odd bounce off against sherman armour. It's very close though.

[IJoe]

Well, I not God, like Dennis, - I could be wrong. 
That post was to describe my observations and the mood they bring. Done without some deep analysis, it might contain some flaws (major and minor).

Now, back to tanks.
What do you, people, think: should the T-34 series have a greater (slightly) acceleration and deceleration than that of panthers?
Put aside history books, think game-wise.

I, personally, think they should, since these parameters are what is required for maneuvering during battle encounters,  and lighter tanks should have some preference in that over the heavy ones.

[Blackbishop]

IMO they are fine as it. They should have by now the same acc/dec than panthers.

[IJoe]

IMO they are fine as it. They should have by now the same acc/dec than panthers.

That's exactly, what I'm talking about: they have THE SAME PARAMETERS AS PANTHERS, considering acceleration/deceleration, which, in my opinion, is not all that good, really.