Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?

[GodlikeDennis]

I disagree that T34s are unimpressive. I actually think they are by far the best mass production tank in the game. They have decent health, good speed, are effective at all targets with an excellent main gun against tanks and are inexpensive (after teching). They are far better than the comparable shermans, P4s and croms.

[IJoe]

They're (t-34s) good, and impressive  , but it's not about impression, really, - it's all about cost/effectiveness. This way, most people find it better to use SUs, that are a lot cheaper and a little less or equally effective, if used in a proper combination with other troops.

[ForceMultiplier]

Exactly right, the T34's are a fine tank, but the cost of your first T34/85 is the same as an IS2.

Now it's all very well for them to be cost effective once you've built your 4th or 5th one, but who really gets to that point in games?

By the time you're using heavy tanks, a PE player has popped a Jadtiger and their first panthers. At that point SU100's are what you need to damage them and IS2's to soak up the hits.

There is no niche for the T34/85. As I said before, I'd rather see it nerfed a bit (because I do agree they're quite decent) but out in the field earlier and in greater numbers.

[Flanker1949]

"Now it's all very well for them to be cost effective once you've built your 4th or 5th one, but who really gets to that point in games?"

I do, I am known for my tank formation with 6 or more tanks. With the support of 1 upgraded  conscript team, 2 Red Banner trooper team, 1 shock guard team, 2 engineer team and possibly 3 Katiusha depend on the situation.

No one ever surive 

[IJoe]

"Now it's all very well for them to be cost effective once you've built your 4th or 5th one, but who really gets to that point in games?"

I do, I am known for my tank formation with 6 or more tanks. With the support of 1 upgraded  conscript team, 2 Red Banner trooper team, 1 shock guard team, 2 engineer team and possibly 3 Katiusha depend on the situation.

No one ever surive 

Sounds like a "no pop-cap" game, since that's like about all the force you can field out in a regular one. Moreover, I think, it wouldn't even fit into standard population limit.

[Flanker1949]

true, it is in a no pop-cap game. If there is a pop-cap I would only have like 5 tanks, 1 Katiusha and no conscript and 1 red banner troop and may or may not have the shock guard.

[tpcoughlin]

This post has been temporarilly remove for editing by the author . please visit us later.

Enigma

[IJoe]

That's it. That's the last three-pages long post from that guy, that I've read till the end. 

[ForceMultiplier]

haha I agree, No pop cap and rants about the mod don't really address my point.

I think EF is absolutely fantastic, I don't think even Relic would have done as good a job. I think the balance is just about right, I just reiterate my point about T34/85's not really have a niche when you consider how much they cost to unlock.

Maybe it should be dropped to 35 fuel / 100 munitions for T34/85?

[Flanker1949]

Flanker 1949,

You raise many good points and valid issues. The real problem is not that the Sovs are too weak. The problem is that EF is not a finished and polished product. It is a work in progress. Many play issues revolve around ideas that improve CoH play not EF per say. Keep in mind that the game you are really playing is Rock, Paper, Scissors. This is complicated by the prerequisite that the game platform has to work for both AI and MP modes. MP games are thrilling, fun, ego-trips (when you win): but provoke a call to arms to nerf/buff the game to death when players get frustrated. the EF community respond to these battle cries very rapidly. The result is often quick fixes that work to the detriment  of the game platform long term. This Chaotic response is normal and not unreasonable; but it is counter productive to rational design process. If player reaction causes too much Chaos the development process will reach a resonance stage that could destroy either the game or the Development Teams ability to complete the process. We play the game to have fun and for instant gratification. Design and Development is work and results in delayed gratification. The customers ie players are always right, a very thorny problem indeed! If you have neither time or inclination to contribute to the design effort, fine have fun. But you can still contribute  to the Development effort by throwing some money at it. A finished version of EF will still be cheaper than a new THC product and more responsive to your desires than the profit motivated requirements of Relic. Sorry for the diatribe but psychology  and Rock, Paper Scissors go hand in hand.

Flanker1949, are you still awake? Your post indicates you have a solid appreciation for the Soviet Tech Tree and R&D possibilities; and you use a cost/effectiveness approach. Since you show some inclination to crunch numbers; analyze the effects of mp/tick maintenance costs on the number and type of units you can field in your OB. I think this will aid you in prioritizing  R&D expenditures. Let me guess, you are studying Engineering at the University?

You have received many excellent ideas in the replies to your initial post. Let me be one more. I believe your evaluation of the Tech trees and R&D options to parallel my own.
 
My take on EF is that the developers would like this to be a ground sloggers game. Since every challenge must have a counter look to your infantry and support troops for solutions. Lead with your nose. Get that command  squad out early. Get him vetted.
use the command squad and sharpshooter artillery call ins to interdict the enemy armor. So what if you don't destroy them. It only means that their AFVs will be of lesser quality when you do pop out that T34/85 or ISU2. The OPs and Ambulance can furnish mobility to your infantry. Stage the Zis to the OP nearest your next objective. Retreat your Battered assault forces to the Zis, reinforce at OP and attack when concentrated. Infantry and support counters.

The WM support vet strategy may pay dividends to adapt to the Sovs. Cheap Builders with ROKs and hardened combat engineers can be fielded much earlier than enhanced Strelky and Guards. Free satchel charges too! The MG? Ahh there's the rub. Where can you get a 1910/30 Maxim when you need one?

 http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/portals.php?show=page&name=stratguide-supportvet

One of your posts mentioned MG pits. Nikulturni! No cost effectiveness at all. Katyushkas - The Bolshoi! Excellent cost effectiveness. Try the T90 AA for an MG unit.

On to Berlin Tovarich!

Wow  Thanks for your reply and good advice. It is been helpful. I hope we can play together online sometimes. My in-game-name is Zhenlin. And I study Management and Economy in University not Engineering. If I was studing engineering I would probably have at least tried to modify this mod by adding new models myself. 

[RedGuard]

haha I agree, No pop cap and rants about the mod don't really address my point.

I think EF is absolutely fantastic, I don't think even Relic would have done as good a job. I think the balance is just about right, I just reiterate my point about T34/85's not really have a niche when you consider how much they cost to unlock.

Maybe it should be dropped to 35 fuel / 100 munitions for T34/85?

I agree on all points comrade

EF is best mod cant thank enough to dev team
and t34/85 take a lifetime to tech to lower cost would be balanced and appreciated

I suggest a 25pt muni decrease MINIMUM for t34/85 tech and 10 fuel atleast
Its hard to come up with 50fuel and 150muni floating around in competitive games to upgun t34s

[Flanker1949]

haha I agree, No pop cap and rants about the mod don't really address my point.

I think EF is absolutely fantastic, I don't think even Relic would have done as good a job. I think the balance is just about right, I just reiterate my point about T34/85's not really have a niche when you consider how much they cost to unlock.

Maybe it should be dropped to 35 fuel / 100 munitions for T34/85?

I agree on all points comrade

EF is best mod cant thank enough to dev team
and t34/85 take a lifetime to tech to lower cost would be balanced and appreciated

True, the best strategy game mod so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ForceMultiplier]

I've done some more testing and I think we're onto something.

I would be wary of dropping the fuel requirement too much, but then I don't want to see the first T34/85 costing the same as an IS2. I think a munitions reduction is absolutely necessary.

At this stage I would advocate for 50 / 125 (fuel/munitions) unless the tank is slightly nerfed. If the tank is slightly nerfed I'd be happy with 40 / 100.

Cheers guys! Keep up the fantastic work!

[IJoe]

If a T-34 series need something, that would be not a nerf, but a slight buff to acceleration and deceleration to increase it's battle performance. That would be especially in time and quite adequate, with wehrmacht's pak AT buffs, some heavy tanks' cost reduction, and slight buffs to heavy armored support, that are coming with the "final patch", taken into account.
After all, it's just not good, that these values are the same as ones of a panther (a much, much heavier tank): it's these that make the battle, not the speed (which, in turn, is OK ATM, I guess).

[Blackbishop]

If a T-34 series need something, that would be not a nerf, but a slight buff to acceleration and deseleration to increase it's battle performance.
After all, it's just not good, that these values are the same as ones of a panther (a much, much heavier tank): it's these that make the battle, not the speed (which, in turn, is OK ATM, I guess).

That was already done in 1.31 .