Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?  (Read 19372 times)

Offline Desert_Fox

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2011, 08:14:30 PM »

Offline Flanker1949

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2011, 01:59:14 AM »
can i have the encyclopedia and also is the name necsasarry anyway
Don't post email adds plz name Joshua

Hi, Josh. Due to the big size of the file I was unable to hotmail it to you. However I have created a torrent for everyone. (this is my first time create a torrent file, please let me know if there is any issue)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 12:05:39 PM by Zerstörer »

Offline GodlikeDennis

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2011, 02:09:51 AM »
Uhh Josh, word of advice. Never post your email on a public forum. You should go back and edit it out.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.

Offline Flanker1949

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2011, 04:15:44 PM »
Ah, I am so sorry. I was unaware of this issue. A million pardon.

And hope you successfully downloaded the file, J. If you encountered any problem, please let me know.

Offline Joshua9

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2011, 07:29:13 AM »

Personally, I'm still having a hell of a time with Russia, so I'm definitely in agreement that Russia is overpowered, I'm just not sure its only slightly. 

Point is taken that Russia is weaker early game, and this probalby should be the point where wehr gets an edge capable of staving off the brutal onslaughts that are likely to follow as russia gets steadily stronger...controlling the early game certainly isn't going to put russia out of it(I just had a remarkable game where my opponent went early snipers, lost 2 squads to 2 of my snipers, and his command squad while I was entirely intact, and then proceeded to turn everything back around with first one, and then 3 t90's, which outclassed my feeble attempts to keep up a decent vehicle deterrent-even though I did have AT popping out when the t-90 hit the field)


So yes, russia is supposed to start out weaker, and have a hard time getting a foothold on the map, maybe.   I find too many of my games don't go that way, and the reason is just how effective these cheap units of russia's become when they are put into a building.  It makes it really easy to hold desirable points with very little. Snipers are way  too slow at getting thesse large squads out, mg's are ill suited to deal with units in buildings, especially because of the punch these units pack at long range when garrisoned.

 Flamers work of course, but russia can deter attacks from an area easily, even before 50 munitions is available, making it hard to actually deprive him of resources, and even the flamers can be easily dealt with, given the surprising range and strength of the russian rifles while garrisoned.  massing volks probably works as well, but it's inflexible, and even if this is the answer, it seems problematic that ruissan play should require it.

This condition is actually fine...it's kind of interesting that these units just work so  much better when in buildngs(partly because they don't charge in to die the way they would on foot), except that it makes the mid-game against russia a nightmare, and late-game a passive experience of just watching in abject horror.


maybe some of the problem i'm having  is the vet, which will be changing,

and then some of the problem is in the effectiviness of tank hunters against infantry, which will aslo be changing(though I think they are still too good against vehicles...and so are guards for that matter, these definitely aren't PE style At grenades)

and for an army as mobile as russia, I find the retreat to medic truck also quite maddening(if cool), because a very powerful, fast blob, can be anywhere at any given moment.  given how badly i'm getting owned by everything under the sun, i'm not yet positive what the justification of this added shock value is)

T-90's make me wet myself currently.  I'm not sure how much AT it takes to handle 3 of these, but I never seem to have enough.  This is probalby a problem with my early game trials against russia.  would be nice if they did less than they do to units in cover..so that their very presence didn't push off grens(or just annihilate them in moments).  Cover does help, but it doesn't seem to help enough.

Anyway,

love the game, love the mod, but the matchup is quite exasperating at the moment, leaving me to speculate wildly at where exactly this seeming imbalance is originating from.


Yeah, I know, its all in my head.  I'm actually fine with that explanation.  hopefully after the retail beta goes live you guys can find some players to post some replays at their more impressive  level so I can finally get a handle on where I'm going wrong.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 07:37:20 AM by Joshua9 »

Offline Flanker1949

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2011, 07:40:09 AM »
Hi, Joshua9. I partially agree with you.
(I hope the administrator can put this topic into the Red Army Suggestions section after this. After weeks of non-stopping online battling with human players in various maps, I have organised some suggestions.)

The part I disagree with you is that the enemy snipers can easily take out my teams in the building, and in a lot of map, the building is usually far away from the strategic point. So the garrison the buildings can not secure a point.

I have a few suggestions for the modification of the game to rebalance this great mod.

1: We all agree that the Soviet is a weak faction in the earlier stage of the game. The main reason for this is that the Soviet has the weakest infantry at the beginning. Mr Black bishop have told us that he is going to fix the issue of the conscripts. That is a great news, but I still suggest that the unarmed conscripts should be equiped with a Naggan revolver.

2: After the upgrade of the conscripts, all conscripts will be armed with a commissar equiped with a SMG, total combat effectiveness against infantry is 2. Now let us have a look at the Red Banner trooper (sorry, I can't remember the name). 6 men are all using the Mosin rifle, 1 man unarmed, total combat effectiveness against infantry is 2. As you can see, the upgraded conscripts are more powerful than the Red Banner trooper. Plus most importantly, the conscripts has cocktail and they only you 4 manpower to upkeep while the Red Banner trooper cost you 7. So in this case, who would train the Red Banner trooper? Therefore, I suggest that we increase the base of the combat effectiveness of the Red Banner trooper by 1 as they are the actual Soviet infantry, not untrained 3 weeks wonderer like the conscipts. But in the same many, we reduce the effect of the upgrade by 1. So if you upgrade them with the PPsh-41, the CE only go up by 3 (but only 3 men of the team will receive the SMG, not all of them). And if you upgrade them with the DP-27, the CE only go up by 1, but with the supressing capability like the Bren. Plus, they are the only basic infantry without AT capability, I was thinking that at least we can give them a cocktail.

3. And the shock guards CE should also be higher than a Red Banner trooper since they are the elite, at list they should be a equivalent of the panzer trooper, so we can upgrade their CE by 1. Otherwise, everyone will just go and train the Red Banner trooper, becaue they can by upgraded with SMG and make their CE up to 6. And it doesn't make any sence that an elite unit like them, only one man has a SMG. Do you think we can give another one or two of them a PPs-43?

4. About the tank hunters. They cost us 8 manpowers to upkeep, yet they only has a embarrass AT CE of 2. I normally let one team of conscripts go along with the AT cannon. Because a conscript team and an AT gun only cost me 7 manpower and they are much more powerful than the tank hunters in every espects. So in this issue I have 2 suggestions:
 (1) the tank hunters  only cost us 4 manpower to upkeep, one man per manpower.

 (2) the size of the tank hunters are reduced into a 2 men team, cost us 4 manpowers to upkeep. This way, it is much earlier for players to organise.

5. In the later stage of the game, the Soviet is too powerful for all factions. Its IS-2 can put an King Tiger into shame. Plus that German player can only call one King Tiger tank. My suggestion is that the Soviet can only have one or two IS-2 at a time, and if the German player lost its Tiger or King Tiger, they are allowed to call another one.

6. The Soviet T-34/76. As I record this tank's main gun is not as impressive as his counterparts. And the T-34/76 and the T-34/85 has no difference in the combat effectiveness. So we want to suggest that we reduce the T-34/76's AT CE or anti-building CE by 1.

7. About the panzer elite, it is a bit weak for players who did not choose the anti-tank tactics. The panzer elite is very fast and powerful in the earlier game. So they can pressurise the enemy and corner them. But if you fail to do so, you will have hard time stop enemy tanks since most of their units are lightly armored. And you have to purchase 2 tank in the same time which cost you 1000 unit of supply. So we suggest that we enable the elephant tanks for them in the later stage of the game.

Those are our suggestions based on out gaming experience, hope everyone agree with us. And we are open for feed back as well. Thanks.


Offline GodlikeDennis

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2011, 10:13:16 AM »
Hi, Joshua9. I partially agree with you.
(I hope the administrator can put this topic into the Red Army Suggestions section after this. After weeks of non-stopping online battling with human players in various maps, I have organised some suggestions.)

The part I disagree with you is that the enemy snipers can easily take out my teams in the building, and in a lot of map, the building is usually far away from the strategic point. So the garrison the buildings can not secure a point.

I have a few suggestions for the modification of the game to rebalance this great mod.

1: We all agree that the Soviet is a weak faction in the earlier stage of the game. The main reason for this is that the Soviet has the weakest infantry at the beginning. Mr Black bishop have told us that he is going to fix the issue of the conscripts. That is a great news, but I still suggest that the unarmed conscripts should be equiped with a Naggan revolver. No need. Conscripts are already decent troops. The only reason they seem so ineffective is the AI bug. Good players are able to micro them to mitigate the effect of the bad AI and can perform decently early game. They are still much weaker than volks though as intended. Also, it adds the Enemy at the Gates feeling of having unarmed troops running along which adds to the cinematic feel of the battles.

2: After the upgrade of the conscripts, all conscripts will be armed with a commissar equiped with a SMG, total combat effectiveness against infantry is 2. Now let us have a look at the Red Banner trooper (sorry, I can't remember the name). 6 men are all using the Mosin rifle, 1 man unarmed, total combat effectiveness against infantry is 2. As you can see, the upgraded conscripts are more powerful than the Red Banner trooper. Plus most importantly, the conscripts has cocktail and they only you 4 manpower to upkeep while the Red Banner trooper cost you 7. So in this case, who would train the Red Banner trooper? Therefore, I suggest that we increase the base of the combat effectiveness of the Red Banner trooper by 1 as they are the actual Soviet infantry, not untrained 3 weeks wonderer like the conscipts. But in the same many, we reduce the effect of the upgrade by 1. So if you upgrade them with the PPsh-41, the CE only go up by 3 (but only 3 men of the team will receive the SMG, not all of them). And if you upgrade them with the DP-27, the CE only go up by 1, but with the supressing capability like the Bren. Plus, they are the only basic infantry without AT capability, I was thinking that at least we can give them a cocktail. The "stats" you are quoting from the UI are meaningless. Conscript mosins do 7 damage I believe and have quite poor accuracy compared to strelky mosins which do about 12 damage I think and have much better accuracy. They are (will be) used for different purposes and are not comparable. Strelky will be your mainline infantry though conscripts will be a cheap flanking force that will be immune to suppression when upgraded, giving more strength against MGs. Strelky weapon upgrades are powerful and in line with other faction's brens and MP40s etc.

3. And the shock guards CE should also be higher than a Red Banner trooper since they are the elite, at list they should be a equivalent of the panzer trooper, so we can upgrade their CE by 1. Otherwise, everyone will just go and train the Red Banner trooper, becaue they can by upgraded with SMG and make their CE up to 6. And it doesn't make any sence that an elite unit like them, only one man has a SMG. Do you think we can give another one or two of them a PPs-43? Guards are a powerful unit because they have tools at their disposal against any threat. Their rifles are quite decent but they are not assault troops like PPSh strelky. They are more like vetted PGs with lots of upgrades. Effective at most ranges, fairly easy to blob but also flexible and able to perform multiple roles like clearing buildings, or using AT nades. They are extremely good for their price.

4. About the tank hunters. They cost us 8 manpowers to upkeep, yet they only has a embarrass AT CE of 2. I normally let one team of conscripts go along with the AT cannon. Because a conscript team and an AT gun only cost me 7 manpower and they are much more powerful than the tank hunters in every espects. So in this issue I have 2 suggestions:
 (1) the tank hunters  only cost us 4 manpower to upkeep, one man per manpower. By manpower, I assume you mean population. Population isn't really a balancing factor since it doesn't mean anything unless you're capped, which only really happens in compstomps/bridge maps. That said, I have no idea why Zerst decided changing population was a good idea.

 (2) the size of the tank hunters are reduced into a 2 men team, cost us 4 manpowers to upkeep. This way, it is much earlier for players to organise.

5. In the later stage of the game, the Soviet is too powerful for all factions. Its IS-2 can put an King Tiger into shame. Plus that German player can only call one King Tiger tank. My suggestion is that the Soviet can only have one or two IS-2 at a time, and if the German player lost its Tiger or King Tiger, they are allowed to call another one. IS-2s are expensive and extremely ineffective against infantry. Panthers may be slightly outclassed by them in a slugfest but are more mobile and better against infantry. Axis AT in general is better than the other factions so use PaKs and shreks to support your units when you fight tank battles. KT and panther will easily put 2 IS-2s to shame.

6. The Soviet T-34/76. As I record this tank's main gun is not as impressive as his counterparts. And the T-34/76 and the T-34/85 has no difference in the combat effectiveness. So we want to suggest that we reduce the T-34/76's AT CE or anti-building CE by 1. I don't know what this CE is that you keep mentioning. T-34/76 is rather ineffective against anything heavier than P4.

7. About the panzer elite, it is a bit weak for players who did not choose the anti-tank tactics. The panzer elite is very fast and powerful in the earlier game. So they can pressurise the enemy and corner them. But if you fail to do so, you will have hard time stop enemy tanks since most of their units are lightly armored. And you have to purchase 2 tank in the same time which cost you 1000 unit of supply. So we suggest that we enable the elephant tanks for them in the later stage of the game. Elefants will be in the OH. Panzer elite has always had a weakness to early light vehicles. Use the AT halftrack, marders or infantry halftracks in combination with shreks. AT half kills the mobility which is the greatest threat, marders do loads of damage but are easily flanked (that's what shreks are used for) and shreks in infantry halftracks are good for chasing down the vehicles on low health, since they can still fire on the move from the back of the HT.

Those are our suggestions based on out gaming experience, hope everyone agree with us. And we are open for feed back as well. Thanks.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.

Offline Joshua9

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2011, 05:09:49 PM »

Hi Flanker,

thanks for the reply, but my complaint was that Russia seems overpowered to me, not underpowered.

godlikedennis,

if you're getting in some good games, is there a chance that you can post a couple replays?  My frustration could be out of making some bad choices as wehrmacht, rather than imbalance, but it would be nice to know what the good choices are.

Offline GodlikeDennis

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2011, 05:04:34 AM »
What's your RO name?

I would gladly play you anytime since it's getting more and more difficult to get games (in my timezone). Unfortunately most of my games have been in the next patch version testing for the devs so I have no replays saved but there should be at least a couple around in the replays section. Chancellor plays T2 terror well, look up his. There might even be a couple games against me.

My preferred strat against SU is T2-T4 blitz, substituting grens for stormtroopers. I find T3 underwhelming.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.

Offline Joshua9

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2011, 05:43:34 AM »

would be glad to play at some point...name is josh9 in game...i'm pretty mediocre though...me and my friend play at about the same level...russia is just breaking that balance for us right now

Offline Joshua9

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2011, 07:09:17 PM »

the good news is I keep walking back my frustration with russia as we play more. 

I think I was jumping to t2 too early(about the time I do against america) and that transition was giving russia the field advantage he needed to make that early t-90 a guaranteed posibility, and then it was just a choice between it or the earlier sniper, both of which really make me scramble.

Also, the straight jump to t2 seems really possible against russia, and halftracks really make their lives miserable early, not to mention 3 or 4 grens following.

I'm getting used to the damage the t-90 does.  I think it should die slightly easier than it does now.  it really seems to take a punishment, definitely seems to take more damage than a skirted m8, from my unscientific experience, which might be a reasonable trade-off if it were just anti-infantry, but it is also effective against pumas, and is horribly horribly effective against infantry.  At the rate it takes to kill them, a couple fausts will not make it limp away, which means that if I don't already have some AT out when it hits, game is pretty much over.

I'm managing the tank hunter threat much better than I used to, so with their minor anti-infantry nerf to the ptrd, i'll probably be happy.

My new complaint is SU-85 and SU-100 armor.  I'm cool with their front armor being really tough, but their side armor is also monsterous.  my friend spammed about 4 of the su-100's and really did a number on everything i had.  I'd gone t-3 with storms.  after getting some vet for the misery he'd caused, he engaged my base, and my storms got to the side of a vet 2 Su-100, and were allowed to shoot it about 6 times, to negligable effect.  I also had somebody shooting shreks at it from the other side, but probably hitting the front armor.  I certainly could have used some paks, as they seem pretty effective against these vehicles, but I would expect the shreks to be a better counter.

Then there's that bleeping air-strike again.  I had a protracted engagement with my friend on langres.  We were both building tanks and losing them, which apparently was a great benefit to him because he wasn't getting too mauled on munitions upkeep.  He literally used that air-strike 7 times that game, one after the other, after the other...its a much better ability than straffing run, and yet it costs the same ammount.  I would appreciate a munitions cost of about 200 per use(though 225 would suit me better).  it can be a game making ability, even in a single use, which is as it should be, but as a perpetual contribution, there's no challenge in it.

Offline Paciat

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2011, 07:54:59 PM »
In short
T-90 has M-8 armor and similar (not sure if it is the same) HP. Youre right when saing that you need any kind of gun to counter them becouse its really hard to hit a moving M-8 with a Shreck.
SU-85 and SU-100 both have Hetzer armor. That makes them really weak to rear hits, even to upgunned Pumas but OP to Stugs and Marders. This will probably change since the axis dont have much fast flanking tanks

Offline GodlikeDennis

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2011, 07:43:10 AM »
Agree with Paciat. SU-85s aren't as good as they once were since their damage output was balanced and their armour isn't so great. Shreks actually are the counter. SU-100s won't be around next patch anyway.

The airstrike was, and always will be, imbalanced. It's simply too powerful to use, even once. The cooldown was broken in one of the recent patches too I believe, allowing it to be used again almost straight away.
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Offline Joshua9

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2011, 05:17:32 PM »

cool, so if nothing else, there will no longer be su-100(happy day),

and they will probably fix the cool-down on the air-strike, if not the munitions cost. 

I can look forward to those changes

Offline Flanker1949

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Re: Does anyone think that the Soviet is a bit too weak?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2011, 04:46:29 PM »
thanks guys for replying me, especially for the Dennis to anwsering me our questions. But there is one more thing I want to know is I could not understand this part of your anwser to well since my English problem: "Population isn't really a balancing factor since it doesn't mean anything unless you're capped, which only really happens in compstomps/bridge maps. That said, I have no idea why Zerst decided changing population was a good idea."
So we still voting for the reduce of the population for the tank hunters.
Because it is really big disadvantage for us in a pop-caped game.


And to Joshua9:
What do you mean??!!!! I just left the forum for a few days and you are voting to deleted the SU-100. Did we do anything to you in the past life??? The Soviet is weaking enough for the first half of the game especially their lacks of AT capability.