Soviet Doctrine

[IJoe]

^^ instead of adding rather unneeded molotovs to strelky, why not make molotov (doctrinally) damage vehicles' engines. 

JK 

[Loupblanc]

 Well, that's not so stupid.
 Actually, it'd make sense. And stickybombs often fuck up engines.
 It'd make sense. Actually, it doesn't make sense for it not to.

[Cranialwizard]

 Well, that's not so stupid.
 Actually, it'd make sense. And stickybombs often fuck up engines.
 It'd make sense. Actually, it doesn't make sense for it not to.

The practicality of adding an ability to just ONE unit, provided he isn't a doctrine specific unit or special in any kind of way, almost makes the entire ability useless.

[IJoe]

 Well, that's not so stupid.
 Actually, it'd make sense. And stickybombs often fuck up engines.
 It'd make sense. Actually, it doesn't make sense for it not to.

The practicality of adding an ability to just ONE unit, provided he isn't a doctrine specific unit or special in any kind of way, almost makes the entire ability useless.

Tell me moar! Esp. about assault grenades 

Besides, this ability is not there for molotovs, 'cause it was considered OP at the time (I think, it didn't change since then).

Making it a doctrine choice, that comes about mid-game, would, on one hand, limit its powers, and on the other, make a lot of new tactics to appear, since conscript upgrade would be a whole different thing with this doctrine ability!
Think of that: cheap to produce, reinforce and upkeep troops, that have a high chance of immobilizing/greatly decreasing enemy vehicles' speed, while unable to actually do significant damage to the latter, would make for a wonderful support unit for your AT guns!

[Cranialwizard]

I still think it should be included for all units.

Assault Grenades is an ability held by KCH when Vetted to Vet 1 without doctrine. If you pick Blitzkrieg, it's essentially extending the ability to all infantry (Volks, Grens, Stormtroopers due to doctrine call-in and KCHs) without the need for vet.

In a similar context I think if you were going to add an ability such as suggested, it should be for Conscripts, Strelky, and Guards (Including their upgraded forms), and not just for ONE UNIT.

[RedGuard]

Yes the more skilled and trained troops should have the know how to use molotovs/grenades as well. after all if the conscripts are doing it, further up in the ranks the strelky would have known how to do this too

[IJoe]

Dudes, adding it to ALL infantry is OP, no - OP!
Penals, (and up to 5 conscript squads you may have left), are the cheapest (and yet far from being useless) mainline infantry in the entire game. In fact, you can win the game with these alone + support barracks.
Thus adding this ability (damage egines with 50-75% chance for success) to molotovs doctrinally for, like, 3 CPs is just perfect.

[Cranialwizard]

But for just ONE UNIT? 

For christ sake if you think it's too OP to give the ability to other mainline infantry then you might as well find another ability. An ability that supports ONE NON-DOCTRINAL UNIT is nearly USELESS.

That's like having the ability:

Bridge Repair = 1 CP Allows your Ingenry to repair a bridge instantly

For one this ability could only be used on about 1/2 the maps because a majority of maps don't even have bridges. And While it's a nice ability, who said the bridges were going to be destroyed during a legitimate match? (Legitimate meaning not: "Okay, Lyon High Resource Annihilate, lets blow the bridges and build a sim city in the middle until we're ready to go spam tanks) PLUS on the added fact that only Ingenry could preform such actions. The practicality of the ability is useless because it doesn't apply to all (or at least a majority) of matches!

So when you talk about adding an ability to an infantry unit, no, let me correct myself, THE WEAKEST INFANTRY UNIT IN THE GAME, No less, THAT is why I highly disagree! It almost FORCES you to upgrade to penal troops, and which that is useless because by the time you can upgrade them you probably already have Strelky and Guards, which unlike penals can RETREAT.

If you're calling an idea similar to the Wehr's Assault Grenades (Only AT Based) OP, then you are essentially calling the Blitz doctrine broken. It's NOT. It's given to ALL INFANTRY for reasons, one of those primarily being so you don't have to BACKTECH to a weaker unit.

Unless of course EF should change assault grenades and make them only available to Volks, that we DO have to backtech. 

In fact, you can win the game with these alone + support barracks.

And you can certainly win with Volks alone + Support and Tanks eventually.

[IJoe]

^^ Somehow there is a doctrine slot for ingenery flamers, right? 
Think game-wise:
1) strelky are shit, unless with ppsh (100 mun): they are low health, highly suppressible (compared to penals/guards) that die like flies
2) guards are expensive
The hell with all of them - I go for cheap unsuppressible (not right now - it fxcking bugged!) infantry, that can chase away mortars/Hmgs, kill-off paks, re-crew and caprture. The rest is my support troops' job.

[Cranialwizard]

60 Muni, mind you. Strelky can also use their sprint abilit to charge HMGs, Mortars, and Paks.

But why bother with penals if RBS are the most powerful unit (aside from shock guards, which btw are unsuppressable at Vet 1 if you're looking for a better unit besides penals)

Ingenery Flamers are for a specifc purpose and support a general idea in the Doctrine: Urban Combat and Building Destruction. Without flames Ingenry are not commonly used as a main infantry unit but such ability DRAMATICALLY changes that, enabling Ingenry to become quite powerful and good support for your KV-2. Even more powerful are the Sturmovie Ingenery.

[IJoe]

60 Muni, mind you. Strelky can also use their sprint abilit to charge HMGs, Mortars, and Paks.

But why bother with penals if RBS are the most powerful unit (aside from shock guards, which btw are unsuppressable at Vet 1 if you're looking for a better unit besides penals)

Ingenery Flamers are for a specifc purpose and support a general idea in the Doctrine: Urban Combat and Building Destruction. Without flames Ingenry are not commonly used as a main infantry unit but such ability DRAMATICALLY changes that, enabling Ingenry to become quite powerful and good support for your KV-2. Even more powerful are the Sturmovie Ingenery.

50/15 (muni/fuel) for penals - 100/40 + 60/0 per squad for strelky, and these sons of bitches still get suppressed, even under charge.
Guards are awfully expensive and take a game to get to. Vet 1 is yet to be reached. (BTW they are less suppressible than strelky right away)
penals/concripts that can stop armor - this sounds quite game-braking to me (BTW molotovs are effective at clearing enplacements, paks, buildings, hold-offs right away, with no additional spendings, unlike flamers)
Ingenery never get better than sturmovye (those too can have flamers, you know)

ADD-ON: "mind you" that hitting on tanks with low level infantry is far more in "support" of "a general idea in the Doctrine" (the defensive one), that any flamers will ever be, for their part. 

[RedGuard]

good strategies here our comrade is suggesting penals instead of expensive RBS

Im going to test this out as well, however i fear late game there is no substitute for ppsh RBS. mass penal good?

[IJoe]

good strategies here our comrade is suggesting penals instead of expensive RBS

Im going to test this out as well, however i fear late game there is no substitute for ppsh RBS. mass penal good?

Penals are not a substitute to any sort of one-type-of-infantry spam. They are dedicated troops, not for lammers 
Also, see http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5461
Comrade! Be aware: with any core changes, like that one, your game WILL become incompatible with multiplayer, uless a companero, representing our hated foe, has the same file as a replacement of a standard one
It might even be necessary to make a complete re-installation of a mod (not that one of a game itself) to restore general multiplayer compatibility.

[Cranialwizard]

But you're forgeting the KV-2 is NOT for anti tank. It's a freaking mobile howitzer. It rips buildings into shreds, but not tanks. It's weakness is AT weaponry, and Dual Flames can both kill AT guns at ease and tear buildings to assist the KV-2. Upgraded they also provide a plenthora of AI assist, Unless grens are vetted they don't stand a chance VS 3 PPSHs and 2 Flames.

[IJoe]

 
What does KV-2 have to do with this all, really?
Anyway, molotovs can deal with paks as well, and not much worse. These can even finish off low-health (almost none) vehicles, unlike flamers. BTW, ingenery is a four-men squad, that cost 4 pop, while penals are twice that size for same pop, and with one ppsh. Outdated (by the upgrade) conscripts would benefit to AT as well.
If penals are ever to be made properly unsuppressible, as they are claimed to be, then they would also be a far better counter to paks, since a decent player would most likely cover those with some AI unit. Well, penals can deal with Hmgs for that instance.