Ostheer and Trenches

[Blackbishop]

Imo that means "use it at your own risk". EF team is creating reward brits because we cannot fix normal brits without changing the faction too much(against policies). If you don't want to use them, and prefer their broken style is up to you.

The problem on normal brits is not the trenches by themselves, you should know it. As Lord Rommel said, until ostheer reaches beta we cannot discard it, then we're going to see how it works, if it's a failure, it will be changed.

[Analpirat]

If you are just adding an improved British army, and not removing the old 1, the old 1 will become obsolete anyway...

And you are thusly implying that your British faction is superior to Relics British faction which won't be attractive for the Main CoH player Base which doesn't neither like great changes nor things not made by Relic.

If you'd allow me a pun, I think the respective sides are deeply entrenched in their positions and there is no easy way to find a balance
wahahahahaha

But seriously, trenches are gonna fuck up balance quite a bit.

 

[Wilson]

@wilson:
changing unit pools will require time and ressources. which means that you won't just switch to 1 pool and after 30 seconds to the other pool. and keep pop cap in mind...you will not be able to build countless units. and while you focus on getting your units, your enemies will simply overrun you

Of course, but what I suggested only required three unit pools to be bought. And Ostheer trenches aren't going to come super early like Brit trenches can, but even though they would come along later the Brits still won't have a decent anti-trench tool.

I suggested that you get the first building (probably something you'd buy anyway?) and then go for the anti-inf pool. You play a bit, then get the second building. At this point, if you're concerned about AT, swap pools at the first building while you get sturmpios from the second building. I'm kind of assuming here that it won't cost huge amounts to change pools, otherwise people would hardly ever bother as Analpirat mentioned above somewhere. I don't know teching times, but Brits can't get armour or even vehicles other than the Bren that quickly, so the Ostheer would have a little while to do this. They might not even need to swap the first building over to AT before getting trenches.

Edit: Also, not quite sure where you're going with the pop-cap and "while you focus on getting your units, your enemies will simply overrun you" comments. I really can't see pop-cap preventing you getting one unit of Sturmpios to build trenches if you can afford the tech. And you'll be buying fighting units and using them, not trying to go straight for trenches with no other combat units. That would be silly. Again, it all depends on the relative costs of tech/units, but surely going for Sturmpios can't be that prohibitively expensive or risky against vehicles, otherwise no-one would ever bother.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Jeah. We are entrenched.
And the reason it quiet simple;
Ostheer faction design was made by the team. I'm part of this team and so i will defend "our project" at all costs.
You are entrenched because u just know the trench in combination with british faction and wont give trenches with other faction any chance.

And when i'm informed right some other mods used trenches for all factions

[Analpirat]

Jeah. We are entrenched.
And the reason it quiet simple;
Ostheer faction design was made by the team. I'm part of this team and so i will defend "our project" at all costs.
You are entrenched because u just know the trench in combination with british faction and wont give trenches with other faction any chance.

And when i'm informed right some other mods used trenches for all factions

Two words: Institutional bias
Don't let it bite you.
(Same goes for me, I know)

[Ghost]

If you are just adding an improved British army, and not removing the old 1, the old 1 will become obsolete anyway...

And you are thusly implying that your British faction is superior to Relics British faction[...]

why superior? it will simply fit better into vCoH 

but i guess we can keep talking about this topic for centuries. let's just accept things as they are and wait for OH to go into beta testing. then we can start again 

[Analpirat]

If you are just adding an improved British army, and not removing the old 1, the old 1 will become obsolete anyway...

And you are thusly implying that your British faction is superior to Relics British faction[...]

why superior? it will simply fit better into vCoH 

but i guess we can keep talking about this topic for centuries. let's just accept things as they are and wait for OH to go into beta testing. then we can start again 

I meant superior in design.
Although I think you're being ironic, in which case this reply is moot.

[pariah]

Indeed, we should wait until Ostheer is in beta to make these Trench decisions. Just see how it goes, and take it from there, O.K.?

[Analpirat]

Nah, I'll still say trenches are an awful idea. Just because that is the concept atm doesn't mean one has to stick to it until it proves to be an awful idea 

[pariah]

Sure, we all have our opinions, including myself, but all this discussing doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. So i think we should just let the developers do what they will, and gripe when they are done, O.K.?

[Ghost]

Although I think you're being ironic, in which case this reply is moot.

no, i was serious...

[Venoxxis]

hell.. this thread seems to be already exploded.

Lord Rommel seems to drive his 2nd "Afrika-Feldzug" here

Nah, I'll still say trenches are an awful idea. Just because that is the concept atm doesn't mean one has to stick to it until it proves to be an awful idea 

This is right what i think as well. Its not about the possible balance problems these trenches could cause, its mainly about the trenches itself.

Simply seeing these trenches showing up on the map destroys some of the vCoH gameplay & feeling.

If trenches make it in the Ostheer, there should be really some new kind. The brit like trenches are..
- possible balance carnages
- a copy (for the 2nd time)
- really boring modelled

IF trenches are really supposed to be in the ostheer. Than on another way. These trenches shouldnt freak out balance, gameplay and feeling for the sake of historical accurancy.


best Regards

[neosdark]

Im still wondering why we cant give Tommies or Sappers a Lifebuoy, or an M2. I mean what will that change other than give them something to fight trenches with that doesn't come from Royal Engies Department. If there is a problem make it accesible only when a Captain is out in the field.

And if we can't fit the upgrade, then just make reward unit, that takes the place of the Sapper, comes with Flamers automaticly and has the same exact upgrades as the Sapper and when an upgrade is made they just lose the Flamer. So you would have to choose to make them AT or over-rep, or demo team and think about the Anti-Trench capabilities you are losing. Also make them cost a some extra MP to appease the nay-sayers.

Another suggestion is to give each of the 3 doctrines its own way to fight trenches. ex: When you get the Royal Arty, don't give the mortars Overwatch, but instead give them Incinderies, to deal with nearby trenches, Give the RAC Tommies Grenades, and for the Royal Engies, make the Croc and AVRE upgrades of the same Churchill (make it cost more of course), and give them new stuff for the empty spots (something numerous mods have done, without deviating from standard gameplay)

[Venoxxis]

Im still wondering why we cant give Tommies or Sappers a Lifebuoy, or an M2. I mean what will that change other than give them something to fight trenches with that doesn't come from Royal Engies Department. If there is a problem make it accesible only when a Captain is out in the field.

And if we can't fit the upgrade, then just make reward unit, that takes the place of the Sapper, comes with Flamers automaticly and has the same exact upgrades as the Sapper and when an upgrade is made they just lose the Flamer. So you would have to choose to make them AT or over-rep, or demo team and think about the Anti-Trench capabilities you are losing. Also make them cost a some extra MP to appease the nay-sayers.

Another suggestion is to give each of the 3 doctrines its own way to fight trenches. ex: When you get the Royal Arty, don't give the mortars Overwatch, but instead give them Incinderies, to deal with nearby trenches, Give the RAC Tommies Grenades, and for the Royal Engies, make the Croc and AVRE upgrades of the same Churchill (make it cost more of course), and give them new stuff for the empty spots (something numerous mods have done, without deviating from standard gameplay)

Once there was the idea, that the existing factions shouldnt be changed. AND this idea is still around on EF, as long as the devs stay loyally to themselfs.


Regards

[Rikard Blixt]

Gonna close this topic for now.

Speculations won't do good enough. We'll all see how it works out when Ostheer goes to Beta. I'm sure a similar thread will be up during the Beta on the Beta forum.