Ostheer and Trenches

[pariah]

I think the aforementioned reverse Sand Bags is the best option. Possibly with mounted guns...

[Ghost]

[...] You don't balance old factions to be able to put up with new factions. You balance the new factions around the old factions. And thusly, the problems we are talking about would be exactly caused by the Ostheer having trenches.
As to the argument of the Ostheer capturing British trenches: The Brit player has control over his trench and he can decide whether its captured or not(because he can just delete them). The Brit player hoewever does not have control where and when the OH player builds his trenches. Simple as that.[...]

the point is that relic caused the problem: by not giving brits effective trench-counters. and the flame nades are strong vs trenches but only if you get close enough (that's why i mentioned the mg nests ).
i don't think that brit players have control why's in their trenches...they can't delete the trench if it's lost to the enemy.
and the big thing about this discussion is that some people believe that OH players will just dig in and build trenches all over the map...but who knows if that's gonna happen?!
and like lordrommel mentioned trenches will balance the fact that ostheer infantry will be expensive and that it has 4 men squads plus the fact that there is no other defensive building.

but there might be a simple solution to the whole thing: give the brits some sort of trench fighting reward unit. maybe alternative sappers with flamers instead of piats or something else.

[Analpirat]

Well, the simplest solution would be not to include trenches in the first place. I will agree with you that Relic might have created the Problem by not giving the Brits an anti-trench weapon (which,otoh they didn't really need) but there's no reason to aggravate that problem by giving the axis acces to trenches.

(btw, as a Brit you delete the trenches before you loose them,ofc)

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Think u forget a point;
With trenches Ostheer demobilises itself.
Perhaps they could dig in at important map points
but u get the chance to manoeuvre around this positions
to attack the important fire support weapons like the Flak 38,
the Pak 40 and the LeIG 18 from behind! So when Ostheer player
decided to dig in he will lose a part of his mobility!

[IJoe]

Think u forget a point;
With trenches Ostheer demobilises itself.
Perhaps they could dig in at important map points
but u get the chance to manoeuvre around this positions
to attack the important fire support weapons like the Flak 38,
the Pak 40 and the LeIG 18 from behind! So when Ostheer player
decided to dig in he will lose a part of his mobility!

I don't understand, what's so good about standard trenches (except for the fact, that they already exist and don't require a bit of work), that you are so stuck to them?

[cephalos]

Think u forget a point;
With trenches Ostheer demobilises itself.
Perhaps they could dig in at important map points
but u get the chance to manoeuvre around this positions
to attack the important fire support weapons like the Flak 38,
the Pak 40 and the LeIG 18 from behind! So when Ostheer player
decided to dig in he will lose a part of his mobility!

and what should I do when OStheer dugs in the chockepoint ( ie. bridgehead)?? Aske them to make more space to flank them?? That's silly...

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Victory-point games are one game modus
But like i said. It is expenisve and cost a lot of manpower and resources.
I'm confident that Ostheer wont be able to defend all points with
absolute fire advantage.

I'm sure that the trenches could be balanced.
And like i had explained; trenches are an important part of military battles. Infantry had to dig in when they wont be killed by artillery or mortars.

Out of historical view and gameplay view i cant see a problem that cant be solved by ef team. And it seems to me that the only real problem is the british faction because the rest get weapons against entrenched enemys.

[Wilson]

Think u forget a point;
With trenches Ostheer demobilises itself.
Perhaps they could dig in at important map points
but u get the chance to manoeuvre around this positions
to attack the important fire support weapons like the Flak 38,
the Pak 40 and the LeIG 18 from behind! So when Ostheer player
decided to dig in he will lose a part of his mobility!

That's the thing with trenches, you don't really. If you're being flanked, just blow up your trench (instantly) and move your men to counter the flank. There's no downside to building a trench except time, pretty much. And for Ostheer you'd have to get an upgrade on a unit of Sturmpios, but that's not a huge deal.

Victory-point games are one game modus
But like i said. It is expenisve and cost a lot of manpower and resources.
I'm confident that Ostheer wont be able to defend all points with
absolute fire advantage.

I'm sure that the trenches could be balanced.
And like i had explained; trenches are an important part of military battles. Infantry had to dig in when they wont be killed by artillery or mortars.

Out of historical view and gameplay view i cant see a problem that cant be solved by ef team. And it seems to me that the only real problem is the british faction because the rest get weapons against entrenched enemys.

What's expensive? Trenches are only expensive if you build a ton of them and have them garrisoned, you don't need to do that. One trench at a key point (e.g. a VP) that can't be countered will spoil the game.

History isn't relevant to this, there are plenty of things that were important in the war that aren't covered. The main problem is the British, yes. But that's a whole faction, so it's a very big problem. A reward unit to counter trenches would be effectively mandatory if nothing else was done, and a clumsy solution in my opinion.

Edit: And yes, VPs are only one game mode, but so is annihilation. They both have to work well.

[cephalos]

Ok, so I agree to give Ostheer trenches. As far US, Wehr and PE will get them. Soliders should have chance to dig in, don't you think?

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

[...] And for Ostheer you'd have to get an upgrade on a unit of Sturmpios, but that's not a huge deal.

+ resources for the building
+ resources for the unit pool
+ research time
= a lot of factors u have to keep in mind
When u want to play with this unit pool u have to play a bit more defensive like.
But thats one of the ideas of the Ostheer; decided between offensive and defensive gameplay.

[Wilson]

[...] And for Ostheer you'd have to get an upgrade on a unit of Sturmpios, but that's not a huge deal.

+ resources for the building
+ resources for the unit pool
+ research time
= a lot of factors u have to keep in mind
When u want to play with this unit pool u have to play a bit more defensive like.
But thats one of the ideas of the Ostheer; decided between offensive and defensive gameplay.

Eh, they don't really come into it. You won't be doing that stuff purely for trenches. I imagine it will be fairly likely that you'll get that building anyway. It isn't going out of your way enough to justify trenches. Even if it was, it doesn't solve the problem. Once the trenches are there, how do the Brits cope?

Edit: I know that stuff is a concern, but it isn't enough to make up for if the trenches are unbalanced.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Jeah. Okay. British faction had problems (but i had never disclaimed this point).
But this is ONE faction and in combination with US and USSR playes had to work together to hit an entrenched enemy.

And perhaps we will find a way to help british army against trenches

[Rikard Blixt]

Plus you must go with HA, HA really make you suffer in terms of anti tank support, giving you the only option for anti tank is to go the LS from first building, which makes you suffer in anti infantry in T1.

[Ghost]

[...] And for Ostheer you'd have to get an upgrade on a unit of Sturmpios, but that's not a huge deal.

+ resources for the building
+ resources for the unit pool
+ research time
= a lot of factors u have to keep in mind
When u want to play with this unit pool u have to play a bit more defensive like.
But thats one of the ideas of the Ostheer; decided between offensive and defensive gameplay.

+ research cost and what rizz said:

Plus you must go with HA, HA really make you suffer in terms of anti tank support, giving you the only option for anti tank is to go the LS from first building, which makes you suffer in anti infantry in T1.

which means no pak and no ISG

[IJoe]

Jeah. Okay. British faction had problems (but i had never disclaimed this point).
But this is ONE faction and in combination with US and USSR playes had to work together to hit an entrenched enemy.

And perhaps we will find a way to help british army against trenches

You're not supposed to change default factions in any way, just deal with it as it stands, right?