Ostheer and Trenches

[Analpirat]

Jeah. Okay. British faction had problems (but i had never disclaimed this point).
But this is ONE faction and in combination with US and USSR playes had to work together to hit an entrenched enemy.

And perhaps we will find a way to help british army against trenches

But why create a problem that you then attempt to fix? It just isn't logical. Plus relying on US and Soviets in 1vs1 won't work.

[Blackbishop]

Jeah. Okay. British faction had problems (but i had never disclaimed this point).
But this is ONE faction and in combination with US and USSR playes had to work together to hit an entrenched enemy.

And perhaps we will find a way to help british army against trenches

You're not supposed to change default factions in any way, just deal with it as it stands, right? 

Are you forgetting something about the brits ?

[Ghost]

You're not supposed to change default factions in any way, just deal with it as it stands, right? 

what's wrong about trying to fix what relic screwed up a long time ago? EF has made balance fixes before and if missing british anti-trench capability is a problem, why shouldn't it be solved?
and let's be honest: the brits are right now far from being a balanced faction. hope RC will change that

[Wilson]

Hmm, those are good points. It's true that the choices of teching and so on could have a big impact on how viable trench Sturmpios are, but it still strikes me as a potential imbalance that could be avoided by giving Sturmpios something other than trenches.

If it isn't prohibitively expensive to change focuses, you might well be able to go anti-inf with the Infanterie Gruppen Post, then switch to AT after you get some MGs/Snipers, allowing you to go for the Sturmpios with the Schutzen War Camp. I admit I don't know the tech costs/times etc, but if it isn't deemed totally unfeasible to go for Sturmpios relatively early, if their trenches are a problem for Brits, it's a problem for balance.

Obviously it becomes less of an issue in 2v2s, but the game has to be balanced in 1v1 as well. You can say the Brits are only one faction, I can say the Brits are a whole one faction. I'm guessing the devs aren't going to make a whole faction super difficult to use against one other faction, so if trenches are a problem something will have to be done.

Edit:

You're not supposed to change default factions in any way, just deal with it as it stands, right? 

what's wrong about trying to fix what relic screwed up a long time ago? EF has made balance fixes before and if missing british anti-trench capability is a problem, why shouldn't it be solved?
and let's be honest: the brits are right now far from being a balanced faction. hope RC will change that

I gather the philosophy of the team has been to avoid major changes to the current factions. Hence RMC being a reward faction rather than just changing Brits. Plus there's always the risk of causing all kinds of balance chaos in changing a faction. Especially when there'll be six factions.

[Analpirat]

Plus you must go with HA, HA really make you suffer in terms of anti tank support, giving you the only option for anti tank is to go the LS from first building, which makes you suffer in anti infantry in T1.

You see, I'm really sceptical if you're gonna pull that off the way you think it should work. Because the early game is about infantry, so no one would pick the Anti Tank pool. On the other hand, in T2 you'll need AT, so no one would pick the other side. Which would leave 2 pools heavily underused unless you make it so that players do have a practical (spending assloads of ressources and time makes it a choice in theory only) choice. In which case we've come full circle and it is just as if you could pick any unit any time.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Well.
Ostheer is the answer against the red army.
So it is planed to fight at its maximum against this infantry spam army.
BUT i'm absolutly confident that we could balance the Ostheer against all possible enemies.

We had already listed u the facts of the trench.
When u want to play with trenches u will accept the aftermath of your decision.
U have a lot of costs for the Ostheer, u get problems of tank fighting and u wont be able to build up so much offensive troops to control/dominate your enemy.

I can understand that u are thinking of the pro and contra of this "trench unit" but like i had already written; I'm sure we could balance this point.
And when we see during BETA that we cant find a way to deal with trenches we will inform u and will change this point.
BUT till we had a beta phase with significant results we wont change this unit.

Edit: I would take the LS pool because of the 2cm Flak Only way for the Ostheer to shot down planes and fight early armour.

[Wilson]

Plus you must go with HA, HA really make you suffer in terms of anti tank support, giving you the only option for anti tank is to go the LS from first building, which makes you suffer in anti infantry in T1.

You see, I'm really sceptical if you're gonna pull that off the way you think it should work. Because the early game is about infantry, so no one would pick the Anti Tank pool. On the other hand, in T2 you'll need AT, so no one would pick the other side. Which would leave 2 pools heavily underused unless you make it so that players do have a practical (spending assloads of ressources and time makes it a choice in theory only) choice. In which case we've come full circle and it is just as if you could pick any unit any time.

Mmm, this has a huge bearing on the balance. We are all theory-crafting a lot here with not much to go on, but at a basic level, if trenches are too good against Brits, they have potential to be a problem regardless of when they come out.

[Analpirat]

You're not supposed to change default factions in any way, just deal with it as it stands, right? 

what's wrong about trying to fix what relic screwed up a long time ago? EF has made balance fixes before and if missing british anti-trench capability is a problem, why shouldn't it be solved?
and let's be honest: the brits are right now far from being a balanced faction. hope RC will change that

The problem is that it conflicts what this mod set out to to: not change the vanilla gameplay. And if you're now starting to change things to make the vanilla factions fit your mod-factions you've left your path and you're down with all the other mods that are a balance mess.

[Wilson]

Well.
Ostheer is the answer against the red army.
So it is planed to fight at its maximum against this infantry spam army.
BUT i'm absolutly confident that we could balance the Ostheer against all possible enemies.

We had already listed u the facts of the trench.
When u want to play with trenches u will accept the aftermath of your decision.
U have a lot of costs for the Ostheer, u get problems of tank fighting and u wont be able to build up so much offensive troops to control/dominate your enemy.

I can understand that u are thinking of the pro and contra of this "trench unit" but like i had already written; I'm sure we could balance this point.
And when we see during BETA that we cant find a way to deal with trenches we will inform u and will change this point.
BUT till we had a beta phase with significant results we wont change this unit.

Fair enough. I guess it won't hurt to wait until beta. Hehe, you'll certainly be checking to make sure it's balanced now.

[Ghost]

@wilson:
changing unit pools will require time and ressources. which means that you won't just switch to 1 pool and after 30 seconds to the other pool. and keep pop cap in mind...you will not be able to build countless units. and while you focus on getting your units, your enemies will simply overrun you

@analpirat:
like lordrommel/rizz said: it's about the choices YOU make. if you go for anti-inf and your enemy comes with tanks....game over the brits need balance changes anyway regardless of OH having trenches or not.

[pariah]

You're not supposed to change default factions in any way, just deal with it as it stands, right? 

what's wrong about trying to fix what relic screwed up a long time ago? EF has made balance fixes before and if missing british anti-trench capability is a problem, why shouldn't it be solved?
and let's be honest: the brits are right now far from being a balanced faction. hope RC will change that

The problem is that it conflicts what this mod set out to to: not change the vanilla gameplay. And if you're now starting to change things to make the vanilla factions fit your mod-factions you've left your path and you're down with all the other mods that are a balance mess.

Dude, Opposing Fronts fucked up the balance, not Eastern Front. In my opinion, Eastern Front should aim to fix the balance problems aswell as add the new armies.

[Blackbishop]

I don't know why everyone is thinking we are going to change somehow the original brits, do you remember that reward brits will be out soon?

[IJoe]

I don't know why everyone is thinking we are going to change somehow the original brits, do you remember that reward brits will be out soon?

That doesn't mean, that default brits should become even more useless, than they are right now, does it?

[Analpirat]

I don't know why everyone is thinking we are going to change somehow the original brits, do you remember that reward brits will be out soon?

And that's what it's about: The original Brits will still be around. And they, without relying on reward units or one specific doctrine should be able to deal with the OH as good as the US or the Soviets should be able to. If they can't they Ostheer isn't properly balanced. And you can't make that go away by saying: Well Relic screwed them up anyway.

And the Best part is: one of the screwed up things about the Brits is their trenches, the same trenches you want for the OH. To me,that just doesn't make any sense.

[pariah]

If you are just adding an improved British army, and not removing the old 1, the old 1 will become obsolete anyway...