Waffen-SS & Panzer Elite

[Abyssio]

When i first heard the Panzer Elite i was thinking: "well Italians arent cool enough for this game so they make a panzergrenadiers into a new faction". A long while later i read from somewhere that the panzer elite suppose to be Waffen-SS, which is not a part of the Wehrmacht. According to the source that i cant find it again, Waffen is usually equipped with "2nd grade" equipment like Marder and early version of Panzer4 tanks . Even super tanks like jagpanthers are rebuild from panthers with damaged turrets. So the Waffen deserves the new-faction title, but there's some dark history with the Waffen so they stuck with the name Panzer Elite.

So what do you guys think? Is it true that Waffen-SS is really given left-overs from the Wehrmacht? Or can we say panzergrenadiers and Wehrmacht are actually separate bodies?

[WartyX]

I believe that the Panzer Elite are a veteran Eastern Front SS division using the armoured equivelant of 'Make-do and Mend', which was fairly common in the Second World War. Why buy new equipment when you can recycle old and just hope the enemy doesnt have the right AT gun 

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Panzer Elite could be the Waffen SS because during the Battle of Arnhem and Holland germans send the 2. SS.-Panzerkoprs by SS-Obergruppenführer Willi Bittrich against the XXX. british Corps and the paratroupers. Part of the 2. SS.-PzKorps were although an hugh number of "Kampfgruppen" which were most named by their leading officers ( but 1944 there wasnt any unit called Kampfgruppe Lehr ).
This Kampfgruppen were often armed with rest of weapons of their older troup or weapons which were just avalible in short time.
An other indication fot Waffen-SS is the sign of the vehicles because they have the sign of a bolt and this sign was the offical sign of the II. SS.-PzKorps 1944.

So i think this equipment of the Panzer Elite was chosen because of the theater and the armysituation.
Normaly Waffe-SS gets better equipment then the Wehrmacht e.g. the Tiger: Wehrmacht had to use 10 companies of Tigers for all fronts! SS had three own Tiger-companies and three divisions with thier own Tiger-forces so they had more Tigers for their own troups then the Wehrmacht fot all theaters. 3 SS.-PzKorps with 3 own Tiger-companies...so each PzKoprs could get his own Tiger-support
But the Kampfgruppen werent Waffe-SS troups, they fight just under the 2. SS.-PzKorps and so they dont get better equipment. They had to use what they get.

Lord Rommel

[WelshManDan]

  The Kampfgruppe Lehr were probably a direct comparison of the Panzer lehr Division. This was an Elite Whermacht division that, with Grossdeuchland Divisiond, was Hitlers favourite Whermacht divisions. The Waffen SS where much more elite however, and every SS soldier vowed to die for Germany. In fact, during the Battle of Berlin, the Waffen SS were telling the Whermacht infantry to give them their weapons, but the Whermacht denied and shot the Waffen SS soldier. This was a great dishonour to Nazi Germany in its final days because the Waffen SS would of fought to death, whereas those Wehrmacht soldiers would of surrendered.
  The Waffen SS would not of been given the Wehrmachts "hand-me-downs" because they would of been given the best equipment first, in fact, a SS Soldier would of been given blood before a dying Whermacht soldier, that is why the SS had their blood types tattoo'ed on their wrists.
   So the PE was definetly not the Waffen SS.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

I think the PE is a part of the SS or better SS is a part of the PE
PE as a part of the Panzer-Lehr-Division ( Bayerlein ) is unpossible because Panzer-Lehr-Division never build up a Kampfgruppe.
I had already write that one of the best indicators is the symbole of the SdKfz. 250.. It looks like the bolt of the 2. SS.-PzKorps ^^
Perhaps PE is the mix out of the 2. SS.-PzKorps, the german Luftwaffen-Units of the Netherlands and the Kampfgruppen around Arnhem 

[TheAllMihtyOne]

well we culd all atleast agree that PE is the SS of CoH not nessesarly that they are SS but at ´the curent state this is as close as you get

[UeArtemis]

And one more: the Panzer Elite use the Waffen-SS rank insignia.

[Halftrack]

So i think this equipment of the Panzer Elite was chosen because of the theater and the armysituation.
Normaly Waffe-SS gets better equipment then the Wehrmacht e.g. the Tiger:

The Waffen SS receiving the better equipment than the rest of the Wehrmacht... thats a long time myth. Wonder where
people got that from.. ?
Surely the  "Big 4" of the Waffen SS Divisions had good equipment. And yes, LAH, TK and DR had their own Tiger company in Mid War. But afterwards those were detached, and regrouped into the Heavy SS Tank Batllions 101,102 and 103 you named.

Otherwise, take a look equipment lists, compare any given SS Division to the Wehrmachts Divisions...  you wont find
anything "better" there. In contrary, Wehrmacht Elite Divisions like GD and Panzer Lehr were priotirized.

The two SS Panzerdivisions 9 and 10, who were stationed
in the Arnhem area for refitting as Market Garden began ( and this is where the PE is ) were heavily depleted from the Falaise
Pocket disaster and didnt have much new armour.
The Kampfgruppen were thrown together from very different units, trainees and even workers... SS, Heer and Luftwaffe units. So the PE does quite a nice job, reflecting that, with their outdated equipment.


nice site with infos about the german side:
http://www.defendingarnhem.com

[aviso]

the panzer elite are the SS, but they have changed the name. The same happens with the assault troops, they really are SS, but THQ have changed the name

sorry if the text have errors

[mawr]

the panzer elite are the SS, but they have changed the name. The same happens with the assault troops, they really are SS, but THQ have changed the name

sorry if the text have errors

not true
panzer grenadier means soldiers who get unloaded from halftracks amd then fights but mostly they are also elite soldiers while waffen ss in something completely else

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

I always though of it as a representation of the 130.Panzer-Lehr division, an elite divison in the Heer consisting of tank instructors and veterans of the Eastern front. To me, the only unit that represents the SS at all is the Wehrmacht Stormtroopers.
Post Merge: March 13, 2010, 10:11:44 AM

the panzer elite are the SS, but they have changed the name. The same happens with the assault troops, they really are SS, but THQ have changed the name

sorry if the text have errors

not true
panzer grenadier means soldiers who get unloaded from halftracks amd then fights but mostly they are also elite soldiers while waffen ss in something completely else

The SS also had panzergrenadiers.

[Oberst Faust]

The Panzer Elite are basically, in my eyes a combination of the Waffen-SS and the panzer divisions "deeper" elements.

The Heer (Wehrmacht) in the game is poor representation of the Heer in my eyes, but overall for a game, it's pretty good.

Also, what someone earlier said about the theater of war, yes that's very true.

[Paciat]

So what do you guys think? Is it true that Waffen-SS is really given left-overs from the Wehrmacht? Or can we say panzergrenadiers and Wehrmacht are actually separate bodies?

PE is a SS panzer corp send to Holland to refit afler fighting in normandy . It was an elite division that lost a lot of heavy equipment. The "left overs" (like the bergetiger) are not from Wehrmacht but from the Falaise pocket. Hitler had promised 200 Panther tanks to them (thats why PE can panther spam) and 7 Fallschirmjaeger regiments supported it so PE is a mix of elite and out of date equipment.
Same thing is with smallarms. Every PE unit has k98 first, later you can get (and spam, unlike wehracht) best rifles, SMG and infantry AT weapons availeble.

[comrade_daelin]

In the context of the Opposing Fronts campaigns, it can be said that the Panzer Elite faction is meant to portray the German forces in Operation Market Garden. However this force was assembled from various divisions and units, both Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS, so to say it is one or the other would be incorrect. The Germans in OMG were an ad-hoc formation gathered to resist the Allied advance. Regardless, the Panzer Elite is Relic's adaptatation and technically not historical.

And as for the Waffen-SS, it is a misconception (rather than exaggeration or myth) that it is an elite force. I say misconcetion because theres a small grain of truth: there wre indeed some "elite" units, but these were a small minority, and their "elite" status was not always due to battlefield performance.

The Waffen-SS was in principle the ideological arm of the army (or inversely, the combat arm of the Nazi party on the battlefield). They had separate ranks and hierarchy system, though technically not superior to equivalent Wehrmacht personnel. The AVERAGE SS unit performed unremarkably or was substandard. This is because SS training tended to involve more ideological indoctrination as opposed to military training. Hence the tendency of SS formations to sustain higher casualty rates- fight and die for the Fatherland.

The Waffen-SS's reputation comes more from the brutality and fanaticism of its members along with the more remarkable performance of a few token formations such as the 2nd Panzerkorps at Kharkov. This presumed elite status came from low regard for casualties, lax discipline concerning relationship between enlisted and officers, and high morale rather than excellent combat performance. They also served as a reliable political force for Hitler, and the Wehrmacht tended to see the Waffen-SS as an inferior imitator. They recieved the same equipment as the Whermacht, if not second-rate equipment, and thus did not have the "elite" status of priority in supply and refitting that the Heer's elite Grossdeutschland Divison enjoyed.

The Waffen-SS was overall an under-average fighting force, and the excellence of a few elements served to inflate its reputation. Never judge a book by its cover.

It is however not unreasonable that Hiterl would have intended the Waffen-SS to be the special elite force that it is now seen as. As essentially his private army being the epitomy of the Nazi ideology, only the reality of WW2 prevented it from being the Praetorian formation that may have been envisioned. After all, in the words of Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want.

[loatty]

the Waffen-SS was also intended to become the Nazi's elite police force after the war, serving only the political leader(s).