Ostheer Update 4: Schutzen War Camp

[IJoe]

Besides, their trenches are doctrinal, and they don't have any anti-trench tools right away as well.

Molotovs do come quicker then then OH trenches.

Comparing molotovs, which are actually an upgrade to a flamethrower which is not, taken as trench-clearing tools, is by all means inadequate in every aspect there is.

PE uses their incendiary nades for Trench Clearing. So it's pretty similar.

Well, of course it is. Every sane person would agree on that. But that, however, doesn't make it nearly as strong a flamethrowers, you wouldn't even have to bother buying first, for they just come by default. Moreover, the same troopers, that wield them, can also build trenches (by default as well).   

[Rikard Blixt]

Wait what? PE needs to upgrade to Incendiary nades first, and can't build trenches?

[IJoe]

Wait what? PE needs to upgrade to Incendiary nades first, and can't build trenches?

I meant the Ostheer. It's their branch, right?

[Analpirat]

I agree with all the trench-opposed people here. Imho trenches completely screw CoHs gameplay mechanics and I think everyone clearly sees that. No clever use of cover, no maneuvering,no flanking, no real micro(just delete it when they come with flamers). Just pop a trench and hop in and you're done. It isn't even the model, it's the mechanic.

And even if it comes relatively late with the Ostheer, why even bother?
Does it really need them?
Or are you just giving it to them for the sake of historical accuracy? Because that argument just doesn't cut it. Like, at all. I don't think I even have to name any examples for historical inaccuracies in CoH because everyone in the know clearly sees that. What made CoH such a hit is balance>>>realism, and you should stick to that. Just think of what playstyle you're promoting with trenches and then weigh that vs what you think you gain with a little more historical correctness.

Furthermore, do you think it is public perception that the Eastern Front was more static than the Western Front? Will it matter to people? Can you picture someone at GR.org saying: "Well, EF also has trenches for the OH and the Soviets which is important because, while not many people might know about it, warfare on the Eastern Front was a lot more static than you might think"

My plea is: if you're adding a unit or a feature, then do it for the gameplays sake, not for historical accuracy.

[SublimeSnugz]

I agree with all the trench-opposed people here. Imho trenches completely screw CoHs gameplay mechanics and I think everyone clearly sees that. No clever use of cover, no maneuvering,no flanking, no real micro(just delete it when they come with flamers). Just pop a trench and hop in and you're done. It isn't even the model, it's the mechanic.

And even if it comes relatively late with the Ostheer, why even bother?
Does it really need them?
Or are you just giving it to them for the sake of historical accuracy? Because that argument just doesn't cut it. Like, at all. I don't think I even have to name any examples for historical inaccuracies in CoH because everyone in the know clearly sees that. What made CoH such a hit is balance>>>realism, and you should stick to that. Just think of what playstyle you're promoting with trenches and then weigh that vs what you think you gain with a little more historical correctness.

Furthermore, do you think it is public perception that the Eastern Front was more static than the Western Front? Will it matter to people? Can you picture someone at GR.org saying: "Well, EF also has trenches for the OH and the Soviets which is important because, while not many people might know about it, warfare on the Eastern Front was a lot more static than you might think"

My plea is: if you're adding a unit or a feature, then do it for the gameplays sake, not for historical accuracy.

+1 couldn't agree more

[GodlikeDennis]

I said it 5 pages back and I'll say it again. Axis cannot be allowed to build Brit style trenches ever because Brits cannot counter said trenches. I'm in favour of either Cephalos' roadblock style battlement or of a buildable heavy cover style trench, which would be similar to some of the heavy cover available on some maps (Rails and Metal etc.). I'm not sure if you can actually build that type of thing and still be able to move through it though.

[Desert_Fox]

I don't like your avatar 

[Jimbosmith]

neither do i, image deleted

[pariah]

I couldn't see anything wrong with it...

What is really annoying, though, is the comment! Why do people keep asking how to get the Ostheer!?

[Ghost]

Moreover, the same troopers, that wield them, can also build trenches (by default as well).  

Sturmpioneers
Role: Assault Engineers
Weapons: 2xFlammenwerfer + 2xMP40
Abilities: Detect Mines(passive), Barbed Wire, Sandbags, Czech Hedgehogs, Run(requires Blitz Pioneers), Goliath(requires Blitz Pioneers), Trench(requires Fortress Pioneers), S-Mines(requires Fortress Pioneers).
Upgrade: Blitz Pioneers OR Fortress Pioneers.
Summary: The Ostheer Stormpioniers are ready to combat on the eastern front! Let them construct trenches or planting S-Mines by upgrading them as Fortress Pioneers or to assault a position with Run ability and  be able to construct Goliaths as Blitz Pioneers. [...]

they can't build them by default. they must be upgraded first. and keep in mind that they can only have one of the two upgrades...

Heavy Assault(HA): The units that belong to this pool are the Stormpioniers and the Sdkfz. 251 (aka Troop Halftrack).

you have to buy the pool upgrade first and not everyone will take this one. many will choose pak40 and ISG. so i really don't see a problem with the sturmpios being able to build trenches and clear them...

[Wilson]

you have to buy the pool upgrade first and not everyone will take this one. many will choose pak40 and ISG. so i really don't see a problem with the sturmpios being able to build trenches and clear them...

If you want one key point, I think the big one is that the Brits can't counter them (not easily anyway). The fact that the Sturmpios can easily clear trenches isn't an inherent problem in itself.

[Ghost]

i'm not sure, but are riflegrenade squads / mortar pits / AVRE not effective vs trenches?

[pariah]

Rifle Grenades aren't worth much, Mortar Pits have very limited range, and i really don't think doctrinal units or abilities count.

[Analpirat]

you have to buy the pool upgrade first and not everyone will take this one. many will choose pak40 and ISG. so i really don't see a problem with the sturmpios being able to build trenches and clear them...

If you want one key point, I think the big one is that the Brits can't counter them (not easily anyway). The fact that the Sturmpios can easily clear trenches isn't an inherent problem in itself.

 
Furthermore it isn't clear how that pool system will work out. Could be that eventually it will be pretty cheap to swap pools (because otherwise there is a great danger that some pools will never be used)And tbh, atm I think the Blitz upgrade for the Sturmpios is far less rewarding than the fortress upgrade.

@ Ghost: AVRE is doctrinal and I don't think it even works against trenches, though the Croc sure will. But alas, it is also doctrinal and also comes very late and at a high price. Riflegrenades are okayish from what I gather but as of yet they only had to be judged as a tool to recapture british trenches. If the OH can build them whereever and whenever they want I wouldn't be suprised if they wouldn't cut it anymore. Far less effective than Flamethrowers anyhow.

[pariah]

And what's particularly annoying is that the Brits have Flamethrowers in the Operation Market Garden campaign...