Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant  (Read 9982 times)

Offline ChocoboKnight88

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[1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« on: August 29, 2010, 03:18:04 AM »
As we all know, the British are the least popular faction to play with or against for most of the community due to their predictable play, expensive infantry, inflexibility and their reliance of a fragile officer to move through unfriendly territory. Plus if they do get enough officers, they are extremely hard for axis players to stop. Something needs to change.

I'd like to point out that I really think the current officer system is the biggest reason for their notoriety. It's not very well thought out in the fact that they are required to make already-expensive infantry useful and having more than one gives them excessive bonuses. Not to mention that the only infantry AT weapon the British have are on a another squad entirely and they aren't reliable on their own, increasing the size of the blob further.

These aspects don't help deter blobbing at all since it makes it more beneficial to blob, while at the same time, makes it dangerous to spread your forces out too far. These restrictions make them un-enjoyable to play for people who are used to the fast-paced and extremely flexible Americans and Whermacht.

I have some ideas that might save what remains of the British Army's popularity while at the same time, staying faithful to Relic's original concept and increasing the British Army's flexibility. My idea's revolve around the Lieutenant.

Lieutenant

As we all know, they are extremely vital to the success of British Infantry in the game but they are vulnerable and losing them not only puts a halt to the British Offensive and their veterancy, but it also slows down your teching by quite a bit during the Early-Game to Mid-Game phase. The average British player doesn't want to risk losing him at all and keeps all his forces near him to not only benefit from his aura, but to better protect him from possible assassination attempts from the Germans. The current design makes him just too important.

Here's what I propose we do to change him. Here's a list of changes with their reasons below it.

1: Remove his Fuel cost and adding it to the Field Support Command Truck.
2: Remove his Stacking Veterancy.
3: Decrease his Capture rate to 0.5 or 0.75 (From 1)
4: Remove his offensive Heroic Charge's bonus and keep it's speed, received suppression and received damage modifiers.
5: Give him a new ability called "Mad Minute" at Vet 3, which basically consists of the offensive bonus of the current Heroic Charge (Decreasing their Cooldown by half) and temporarily decreases the infantry speed.

Reason for Suggestion 1

I proposed removing the fuel cost because they are so vital to make British Infantry fight properly outside their territory and make them easier to replace when lost. This allows the the British to get more Lieutenants on the field earlier to help Infantry Sections spread out more. However, I wouldn't suggest this if they never had further changes.

Since he was also used as a prerequisite for the Field Support Command Truck, removing his fuel cost would have made a British Player capable of teching faster. So increasing the fuel cost of the FST from 30 to 45 would eliminate that problem.

Reason For Suggestion 2

This is a massive reason for the overpowered British Blobbing that plagues the game right now. Have more than one accompanying Bren-equipped Infantry Sections with PIAT Sappers would tear everything apart. This promotes blobbing far to much and need to be put to an end to encourage British Players take advantage of spreading out more when they have more than one Lieutenant on the field.

Reason for Suggestion 3

I'm suggesting this because a Lieutenant with no fuel cost would make for a tempting capping unit and aiding the British in their efforts to take a favourable position during early game, giving them an unfair advantage. So making them the slowest capping unit in the game should prevent this from happening.

Reason for Suggestion 4 and 5

The current Heroic Charge is in my opinion, another reason that British Blobbing is so powerful. It makes infantry resistant to suppression and damage, makes them run faster and makes them fire twice as fast. The bonuses are far too excessive for one free ability. So I propose we separate the bonuses into two separate abilities. "Heroic Charge" essentially being a slightly improved fire up. "Mad Minute" being a 'stand your ground' type of ability.

"Mad Minute" halving the Infantry Sections cooldown alone is still an extremely powerful bonus. Making the ability do that and nothing else would make it too powerful. So I suggest that it decreases infantry running speed to normal Infantry Section speed in enemy territory and should still effect them that way in friendly territory for the duration of the ability. That way, you can't use it to storm an enemy position and destroy it very quickly. So it makes it a sort of defensive ability that's best used from a position of cover.

For those unaware of the concept of "Mad Minute", here's a small article about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

One final thing though. Those two abilities need to be on a shared timer to ensure that both can't be used at the same time.

Final Comment

These changes won't fix everything wrong with the British, but I think it would be a step in the right direction. It not only decreases the need to blob but also allows the British to move more freely -- earlier. It also makes the Lieutenant easier to replace when lost, allowing more room for error that other factions enjoy. The changes also decrease the power of the British blob, should the British player choose not to change his strategy after these changes.

If you play like me and want to keep and AI and AT infantry in separate control groups, these changes will make setting this up more quickly and easily without being tempted to keep the two groups close together in order to benefit from the stacking bonuses.

What do guys think? Are the changes worth considering?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 01:58:31 AM by ChocoboKnight88 »

Offline neosdark

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 04:21:16 AM »
From my opinion (I'm not much of a British player) this is indeed a good idea. It might make them much better to play as and to fight against. But the removal of the Heroic Charge removes the only way of getting British Troops out of suppression. Thus its removal will be opposed by many people.

I think the Mad Minute idea should be given to the Captain (as he provides defensive bonuses). Also the Mad Minute should only be allowed to be used in Heavy Cover or Trenches (as was done in WW1) since you need a stable platform to continuesly cycle the bolt and entirely remove there movement for the period of the ability.

All the other proposed ideas are good. Unfortunately i think they won't be really noticed since the Eastern Front team have promised not to alter vanilla gameplay (bug fixes and balancing doesn't count as was seen).

Offline GodlikeDennis

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2010, 05:27:21 AM »
I think an exception should be made to that rule for the British, who need design changes rather than balance ones to make them fun.

I strongly agree with all these changes except 3. Even if someone went a "3 LT start" for capping power, they would still cap slower than the other factions and have a ridiculously weak military.

However, the other changes reward good and dynamic play and should be seriously thought over by the dev team. Even if they decide against a total redesign, they absolutely MUST remove vet stacking. Allowing the LT to gain an ability at vet 3 was also a good idea because vetting LTs at the moment gives relatively little benefit compared to the base improvement they provide.
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Offline neosdark

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 06:29:19 AM »
I think an exception should be made to that rule for the British, who need design changes rather than balance ones to make them fun.

I strongly agree with all these changes except 3. Even if someone went a "3 LT start" for capping power, they would still cap slower than the other factions and have a ridiculously weak military.

However, the other changes reward good and dynamic play and should be seriously thought over by the dev team. Even if they decide against a total redesign, they absolutely MUST remove vet stacking. Allowing the LT to gain an ability at vet 3 was also a good idea because vetting LTs at the moment gives relatively little benefit compared to the base improvement they provide.

I agree with you Dennis, but may i ask what is your whole opinion on the Mad Minute ability (it seems useless for a unit that provides offensive bonuses).

I would prefer it for the Captain because it is more useful for a DEFENSIVE STRATEGY. I agree with the splitting of the abilities effects, splitting Heroic Charge's abilities into a less effective Fire Up (since Fire-Up increases ROF or more specificly how often they shoot and releases them from Suppresion+ Makes them Faster) but giving the Leftenant the Mad Minute is just plain strange and not suited for his offensive role. Perhaps as he gains vet he can gain the attack increases to be put in passively. Or giving him a Vet 3 ability called:

"Reckless Command"- which makes all the troops nearby him gain extreme attack bonuses (increase in damage and accuracy), but the Leftenant has to step in front of all his troops to inspire them and becomes a much more prime target and even gains a recieved accuracy multiplier of x1.2, personally i think its much more effective this way and makes sure that you have a good offensive capability but can't always ensure his survival meaning you have to be careful when you use it.

It makes more sense so this is my suggestion for the 3rd Vet ability.

Offline Blackbishop

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 06:54:28 AM »
I like these ideas! as GodlikeDennis said, if the number 3 didn't make it... i wont miss it :D.

@neosdark
IMO mad minute suits well to Lt. If it's not implemented you will weaken him(removing the Cooldown bonus) instead of reinforce him(move it to vet3).
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Offline neosdark

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 08:40:18 AM »
Okay then i will concede my defeat on this arguement, and go bother some other people  :( I guess the Mad Minute would work with the Leftenant but i still think its more a defensive ability. I guess it comes down to how you use the Leftenanat in the first place.

Offline cephalos

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 10:55:51 AM »
Idea is great.... Removing Fuel cost of Leftenant will make him more useful. I'm in +1

Offline Paciat

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 11:21:26 AM »
"Reckless Command"- which makes all the troops nearby him gain extreme attack bonuses (increase in damage and accuracy), but the Leftenant has to step in front of all his troops to inspire them and becomes a much more prime target and even gains a recieved accuracy multiplier of x1.2, personally i think its much more effective this way and makes sure that you have a good offensive capability but can't always ensure his survival meaning you have to be careful when you use it.
LT has to die to inspire his troops?
It wouldnt inspire me.
Thats terror germans youre talking about and the german officer could recive this kind of ability.

UK LT is fine. It mixes german buyable german vet with US gaining vet.
Vet stacking is not a problem to me becouse German vet1 vet 2 and vet 3 bonuses stack too and Elite Wehrmacht infantry or veted PE blobs are hard to kill too. 2 MP44 squads will also win with a Tommy squad + an LT.
Not all LTs bonuses stack.

Offline GodlikeDennis

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 01:09:25 PM »
Leading from the front would be more inspirational for the men. However, he's more likely to receive a bullet between the eyes so that's what the ability represents. I don't personally like the idea of purposefully making your vet carrier more vulnerable than he needs to be though.

UK officers are most definitely not fine. Triple LT Brit blobs have the steamroll effect, where they overrun everything and seem to take no casualties in return. They are perpetually on a heroic charge too, so they have no downtime. The only way to force a retreat is a minefield or indirect fire, which can be literally hit and miss most of the time.
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Offline boc120

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 05:29:56 PM »
I think that these ideas merit consideration.

Offline Seeme

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 06:58:15 PM »
I almost never play as the brits, but these ideas sound great.

+1
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 09:07:04 PM »
Loving all except 3!  These ideas are great!  Perhaps lower their cap rate a little, but not by too much.  Or perhaps put a cap on the number of LTs that can be made on the field at any given time.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 09:10:09 PM by Chancellor »

Offline Zerstörer

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 10:23:42 PM »
Ok, let me start with saying that...we won't replace/redesign the whole Brit faction just because we made some long sought after, necessary balance fixes to vanila gameplay. The British vanila faction will always remain there.

Saying that, the truth of the matter is that I have looked into what makes the Brit faction the least favoured faction in vanila game and this is what it comes down to.
1) Linear teching less flexible than even Soviets in 1.00 No matter what, you have to follow the same teching with the only HQ +2 trucks you HAVE to call in. The only variant of the teching is whether you buy a stuart or save for a quick Cromwell/Roo spam.

2) The infantry game play revolves around building a single blob as brit infantry relying on officers to become largely unstoppable...No flanking /splitting of force needed. When getting more lieutenants instead of being able to make separate 'groups/blobs' with them to give flexibility all you do is add it to the existing blob to stack yup the bonus.

3) The game breaking slowness of brit infantry forcing players to blob and making it impossible to play the game otherwise

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Offline neosdark

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 11:33:47 PM »
Ok, let me start with saying that...we won't replace/redesign the whole Brit faction just because we made some long sought after, necessary balance fixes to vanila gameplay. The British vanila faction will always remain there.


Sounds a lot like what i said on the first post I made don't it eh Zerstörer......


All the other proposed ideas are good. Unfortunately i think they won't be really noticed since the Eastern Front team have promised not to alter vanilla gameplay (bug fixes and balancing doesn't count as was seen).

ITs that one problem we have is that you gents won't alter the Commonwealth Faction (or any other for that matter) and while we all honor your word and will try not bring up things like giving the Brits a new HQ Lorry or a new ability or anything.

 But you see the main problem is that we look up to you guys in the Dev team because you made a brand new faction from the ground up, are developing a new one, and have fixed multiple imbalances in the Vannila gameplay.

Its quite a feat and some of us kinda want you to take it further and slightly tweak or redesign the exsisting factions. We also know that you will say that there are tons of mods that make complete changes to Vanilla and we should look them up but those don't have the Soviet Army. And i don't quite like N44 much (because i can't find the proper way to make the shortcut  ;D )

I'm not saying that you should automaticly drop all work and start making these much needed tweaks, but maybe as a small gift every once in a while, drop in a well designed change that can make the game more interesting or fun. PLEASE  :-*

Offline Seeme

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Re: [1.23.2] Redesigning The British Lieutenant
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 11:41:28 PM »
And the Devs say! (Drum role):

The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

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