1.20 and 1.21 Observation about brit changes

[GodlikeDennis]

I have no idea what AbhMkh just said...

AdmV0rl0n: To be frank, you're an idiot. Kangs were incredibly OP and deserved the nerf. I won't even bother explaining why seeing as you won't be persuaded anyway. In short, they cost far more to counter, in resources and micro capacity, than to use. You're also being overly dramatic. Only two units received noticeable nerfs, those being the kang and bren carrier, both almost unanimously considered OP by (clearly) far better players than yourself.

You seem to be pretty resistant to persuasion so the topic must be personally relevant to you. Maybe YOU should learn how to use something else. Brits are an excellent attacking force, when used correctly. You should also revisit some of the CoH history. Brits made simcities because of ridiculously good overrepair, not because kangs weren't invented yet. Brit endgame is better than ever due to the MBT comet and Pak nerfs, and more fun for everyone involved.

Oh, and I'm not biased for, or against the British faction. I've played more 1v1 automatches as Brits (without kangs/BiB) than any other faction and have played top players on the leaderboards. But I also play the other factions. Maybe you should take a step back and see what perspective you're looking at these changes from.

EDIT:

...
 And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game.
...

Yes, but it actually matters if you lose these. They also don't completely disable their target vehicle (while still moving), before popping out an officer to insta-arty any infantry that comes to it's rescue.

[GreenApple]

CHANGE THE WAY U PLAY!!!!

CHANGE THE WAY U THINK!!!

[Kolaris]

Brits certainly had a high amount of bullshit they could throw out in 2.6, but I think it should be pretty obvious that once you move into the mid-game they're severely lacking. Especially with these (appropriate) nerfs.

Oh, oh wait, I mean without Roo/Staghound ridiculousness. Of course.

They have very few options for dealing with Elite Armour and moving Vehicles. Their scaling is very bad. Their tanks are gimicky if they don't win with shock value.

A couple of things I consider good changes:

- Make the Recon Section into a desirable upgrade. You don't want it overpowering in the first few minutes of course, since you get it for free. The Marksman in the squad uses a unique weapon - give it hefty damage/accuracy bonuses against Elite Armour, similar to a Sniper's bonuses against Elite Armour.

- Veterancy and scaling. You're far better off with 3 unvetted Lieutenants than 1 or even 2 vetted ones. Decrease the stackable, unvetted bonuses but increase the modifiers achieved with Vet 2/3 above and beyond what was taken away.

- Rifle Grenades vs Elite Armour. All Grenades do 1.0x damage to all infantry except Rifle Grenades, which do 25% less damage to Elite Armour. Increase to the standard 1.0x.

Just addressing Infantry combat in the late game, I think these three things would help even out the Commonwealth against Elite Armour Grens without having to resort to un-fun, roundabout bull like Commando Democharges and FOO.

Rifle Grenades and Recon Elements would be the go-to choices for fighting Elite Armour Infantry, while the Bren Gun remains useful for its role in British AV.

[Blackbishop]

:O!!!

Completely agree with Kolaris. I wonder what think of this the dev team .

[AbhMkh]

Each to his own

[GodlikeDennis]

I did wonder why the patch didn't address Brit vet stacking. The other points I care less about but are still important.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

I think the Brits could do with some additions or adaptations to make them more effective.


Reason i say this is they eat up manpower so quickly.
Their commando's cost too much for their effectiveness.

Although they are practically an army in their own right if used well enough the commandos just seem wasted on the british and i would like to see them reduced in cost. or increased abilities or stats to make them worth picking in the doctrine tree.

Their fixed emplacements and trenches are very vulnerable to mortar fire.
 Other than the churchills or the Comet the Brits are weak in offensive armour. Even then your precious 500 manpower + is a bullet magnet for the German anti-armour capabilities.
I would welcome a strategy for the brits that works other than arty them to hell and back.

[AbhMkh]

And So Would I

[AdmV0rl0n]

I have no idea what AbhMkh just said...

AdmV0rl0n: To be frank, you're an idiot. Kangs were incredibly OP and deserved the nerf. I won't even bother explaining why seeing as you won't be persuaded anyway. In short, they cost far more to counter, in resources and micro capacity, than to use. You're also being overly dramatic. Only two units received noticeable nerfs, those being the kang and bren carrier, both almost unanimously considered OP by (clearly) far better players than yourself.

You seem to be pretty resistant to persuasion so the topic must be personally relevant to you. Maybe YOU should learn how to use something else. Brits are an excellent attacking force, when used correctly. You should also revisit some of the CoH history. Brits made simcities because of ridiculously good overrepair, not because kangs weren't invented yet. Brit endgame is better than ever due to the MBT comet and Pak nerfs, and more fun for everyone involved.

Oh, and I'm not biased for, or against the British faction. I've played more 1v1 automatches as Brits (without kangs/BiB) than any other faction and have played top players on the leaderboards. But I also play the other factions. Maybe you should take a step back and see what perspective you're looking at these changes from.

EDIT:

...
 And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game.
...

Yes, but it actually matters if you lose these. They also don't completely disable their target vehicle (while still moving), before popping out an officer to insta-arty any infantry that comes to it's rescue.

I was never persuaded, I merely got abused from early thread. No matter. What I'm going to do is actually go away and play, because actually, I was a little unfair in the fact I;ve not rerad the nerfs and amendments elsewhere in terms of other factions, and from talking to friends, there are notable other changes which mean taking the brit changes and forming a view without examining the others is an inbalanced view anyway.

The brit faction has been nerfed forever, nothing new, and its always been notable anyone not sharing in the peer pressured nonsense gets abuse.

For the record, its probably right the kangeroo's were out of balance. The point I tried to make is large portions of the brit faction are, and I always though the roos were a make up for other areas.

One of the other things is I don't know about all the changes, as I say, I will go away and test some more, but post 2.6, glaring holes in the brits were painfully obvious, at least to me.

1. Commando's were wrecked and get no vet. Late game PE inf chew the crap out of these 'elite' troops.
2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.
3. Churchills are only viable in early and midgame, and are totally screwed late game. Churchills are nominally the only way a brit can bust a road block in terms of vehicles. The engineers have only very minor ways of utilising ammo.
4. The inf late game are screwed.
5. FF and other brit tanks are murdered end game by both AXIS AT inf and armour.

None of these things were ever offset by the Cromwell and stag mid game bump. And lastly, the early game costs have always utterly crippled brits and no the moving trucks ceased to make up for it once mid game arrives because moving in midgame leaves the truck in mortal damage if its found in the open.

As for all the whining about kangeroo's, I regard most of it as whining, because the cost of loading a kangeroo, from a position generally of the early game holding less map + generally getting less reasource required a good player to be able to actually gather enough to make the move anyway. Anyone who can pool or float enough to fill two or more kangeroo's in a serious fight is doing well. As for the insta arty, its not is it, the player would need enough ammo to equip the sappers with Piats and to float 125 ammo to commit to the task. None of this is free.

The costs incurred in loading kangeroos mean - at least to me, the briit has to float serious amounts of ammo and manpower to make this move, and given the already from early game heavy weight limits on what they can create manpower wise, you have to have been having an ineffective game and the brit will have had to have played well to commit to this.

Anyway, no matter. I'l go play this and have a look around.

[AbhMkh]

Our "experts" somehow don't understand this , plain roo is as useless as a ket , there are two ways of putting the roo

AI

2 bren tommies - 900 mp 150 mun, 1 Lt - i dont remember the MP , 1 piat or normal sapper - 320 mp and 75 ammmo agin

total cost = 1220 mp + Lt mp + 225 amm0 + 10 fuel+ roo mp


AT

2 piat sappers - 640 mp , 150 mun , 1 Bren Tommie - 450 mp , 75 mun , Lt mp


total cost = 1090 mp + 225 mun + Lt mp + 10 fuel + roo mp


I dont understand how can nyone call the above as OP

[GreenApple]

2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.

Firefly with Tankcommander + Cromwellcommandtank => Furthes range in CoH except 88.

[Kolaris]

Our "experts" somehow don't understand this , plain roo is as useless as a ket , there are two ways of putting the roo

AI

2 bren tommies - 900 mp 150 mun, 1 Lt - i dont remember the MP , 1 piat or normal sapper - 320 mp and 75 ammmo agin

total cost = 1220 mp + Lt mp + 225 amm0 + 10 fuel+ roo mp


AT

2 piat sappers - 640 mp , 150 mun , 1 Bren Tommie - 450 mp , 75 mun , Lt mp


total cost = 1090 mp + 225 mun + Lt mp + 10 fuel + roo mp


I dont understand how can nyone call the above as OP

Because the 240 Manpower/10 Fuel part added durability that was not proportional to its cost. So now it does.

[GodlikeDennis]

No AbhMkh, somehow YOU don't understand this. The rest of the troops don't die with the kang - they are recyclable. Their cost therefore doesn't factor in. It's like calling in a Tiger for 900mp, but when it dies each subsequent Tiger is only 50mp. A little unfair right?

AdmV0rl0n: Since English appears not to be your first language and you won't seem to listen I'll not debate with you much longer. There isn't any peer pressure abuse, you are simply wrong in your arguments. You have been provided with counter arguments yet you still cling to your position despite having the rebuttals being made by far more knowledgeble and skilled players than you. Balance is gauged by the majority opinion of the (informed) community. Balance is absolutely not achieved by making some units OP to compensate for UP things. Every single unit must be balanced so that it gets used frequently for it's intended purpose, and not abused.

[AdmV0rl0n]

2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.

Firefly with Tankcommander + Cromwellcommandtank => Furthes range in CoH except 88.

You can't keep quoting that the staghound is OP waaa waa and then keep stating that the brits have longest range cos of the command tank. Make up your mind.

Maybe you'd like to have made the original case of the brits gain a powerful tool midgame, but lose their ranged gear, or they choose range and lose the stag. The brits lose something in either case, and frankly, nerfing the stag means they lose both in one case. If you nerf the stag, fine, at least return the command ability.

Tell me, how do you feel about being a defensive doctrine that is both out ranged, and outgunned? Maybe you should spend some time watching marders tearing apart your emplacements and having nothing really to solve that.

Seriously, if you are going to make a case, make good ones.

[Zerstörer]

Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.

Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?

Opine as you think best.

Cheers

Yeah, belive whatever makes you happier .

Will be a hotfix for the "button enemy vehicle" bug or 'till the next patch ?

There will be a mini patch coming today or tomorrow with a few more amendments including the button fix, yes