1.20 and 1.21 Observation about brit changes

[AdmV0rl0n]

In General, Brits tend to be accused of being the most out of balance faction, and in many games they are.

Additions:
The comet. Thanks. Appreciate the work on this. Seems poorer against tanks than firefly. Seems poorer against inf than cromwell. Seems slower than cromwell. Seems tougher than both. This is an early view from just a couple of games.

Actual Changelog
British Bug Fixes and Balance Changes
* Kangaroo Manpower cost increased to 300 from 240. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Fuel cost increased to 45 from 10. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Health decrease from 650 to 550. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Build time increased from 35 to 45 seconds. (Nerf, getting boring now)
* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.
(Not sure, Nerf?)
* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds. (Nerf )
* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced. (Nerf, seems like a very one sided deal about now.. :/ )
* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving. (Improvement)
* Sappers now has wire cutters. (Nerf, I blow up sand bags and barb with piats in needed, and you've robbed the sappers of the ambush)
* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing. (Nerf, the bren already stops firing when repairing which was bad enough)
* Tommy Bren gun can no longer use Button Up while garrisoned (Roo, Bren Carrier, Trench, etc). (Nerf)

Changes:
Major nerf on Kangeroo.
Fuel price up. Cost up. Toughness reduced. Build time up.

Inf nerf, reduced ability of buttoning.

Bren made useless and death on repair (presume this is an early game nerf.)

Sappers are given wire cutters, BUT, you've nerfed sappers because now there is no hidden ambush.

Overall, I might concede that Kangeroos needed some adjustment. I enjoy raiding with kangeroos and I know many other players have an appreicted view that they were overpowered against their costs and there is a quantity of whining about them. 

BUT, I have to say, Kangeroos were one of the changes I welcomed because they gave brits some teeth offensively mid/late game, and in addition they supply some mobility which again the brit needs badly.

Overall, looking at the above, I have taken the view that its a serious nerf on the already misbalanced brits. If you are going to do this, then you need to re-engineer the other units to rebalance the brits.

Suggestions in light of patch - assuming above changes are to stay
1. Reduce brit infantry cost to 400 or perhaps 350
2. Make all brit inf sniper unit by default - unless upgraded
This gives the brits a mobile inf unit early game for lower cost.
3. Remove the upgrade on them until left tennant is out, so no bren or grenade unless the LT is out.

4. decrease cost of bren carrier to 240, but increase build time slightly.
5. Make sappers without piats a tougher unit = to 4 man inf unit. When piats bought, reduce to current health
6. Allow sappers to have piats only when captain is out

7. Allow sappers to have the ambush back, even if they are equipped without piats.
8. Allow sappers a road block function = at the cost of ammo per road block. If felt appropriate make this available only to engineer faction.
9. Make sappers and air borne the only unit that can trench.
Make sappers have the same demo ability as airborne, not just limited to buildings and bridges as per now.

The above adjusts brits to be a bit more like other factions and to increase their numbers and lower cost slightly.

I'm not sure what to say really. Nothing has been done to alter their early game weakness against PIO spam (one example)-  I've said before how much I appreciate the effort put in, and I also am happy to say that as you guys develop things you'll adjust them. But this seems a big unfair nerf, and I offer my comment here in the hope it can be viewed as constructive.

One last thing.
I appreciate the change log. It would be interesting if someone could perhaps give a reason in the change log for the actual change. That way sometimees as a Player I might understand why an adjustment is made.

Overall, I play Brit quite a lot and this change has pretty much shocked me. I don't understand the nerfing (Apart from kangeroo's perhaps, which I think a change overall was due and most would agree with to some degree)

[ChocoboKnight88]

I dislike the fact that the British were nerfed without much in return too but I do not agree with your ideas, nor do I think the developers will implement them. Your changes involve redesigning the British on a fundamental level which throws their balance out of whack.

I think fixing some more of their bugs would be a good way to compensate for their nerfs. That and making sure Pio-Spam isn't as strong as it was before 1.2 (Even though I believe there are more effective ways of dealing with it... Altering their suppression threshold would have been perfect...).

For the mean time though, I can't bring myself to play the British until their Button-Up ability is fixed.

[Zerstörer]

Brits were considered OP before the introduction of the Roo in ToV.
 
The Roo is/was just mental, unbelieveably OP and that's one of the things we fixed.
In fact its the only real nerf along with the OP bren in Bren. Even that is a bug fix as no abilities can be used when units are garisoned in vehicles/buildings
It hardly constitutes as an unfair.
What you list as a ''series of nerfs'' is actually a single unit adjustment-just one!
And its still quite usable and effective...just not cheap as chips

FOO arty was a bug fix, not a nerf.
Piat was a bug fix not a nerf.
How you consider the addition of wire cutters as a nerf is beyond understanding

In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.

There are no plans to make further changes to vanila balance apart from necessary fixes.

Cheers

[Blackbishop]

Well...
a) Kangaroo need all that nerfs to become balanced.

b) The Staghound MG was special... why? because it was bugged.

c) Remember about insta arty... it was way OP!!

d) Hitting a vehicle with PIAT is one thing, but to hit a soldier is another story... It's was made by the same reason that a bazooka guy, a panzershreck team or a PTDR team cannot rip infantry.

d) Recon tommies detection improved... Yeah.

e) All engineers must have wirecutters, if not it's bugged, you cannot compare using wirecutters to blow them with PIATs, it's like using a gun to kill a fly. Sappers don't need ambush, just PIATs.

f) Which unit repairs itself without being target of a tree commander ability? When engies repair stuff they receive double damage as I remember, I conclude that logic was applied. Seems that you don't understand that the BC repair rate is huge, you spent more time weakening than that thing in repairs itself.

h)I have nothing to say about button ability.

I'm not going to discuss your suggestions, because I dont like them... that's all and looks like you are a brit fanboy, no offense intended.

...

I think fixing some more of their bugs would be a good way to compensate for their nerfs. That and making sure Pio-Spam isn't as strong as it was before 1.2 (Even though I believe there are more effective ways of dealing with it... Altering their suppression threshold would have been perfect...).

For the mean time though, I can't bring myself to play the British until their Button-Up ability is fixed.

+1

[Zerstörer]

Pios no longer get elite armour at vet2 meaning Brits can rip them apart-that constitutes as a fix for that problem

The fixed pak is also a big boost to brits and US and in a far bigger way than the Roo or the Button

[AdmV0rl0n]

Brits were considered OP before the introduction of the Roo in ToV.
 
The Roo is/was just mental, unbelieveably OP and that's one of the things we fixed.
In fact its the only real nerf along with the OP bren in Bren. Even that is a bug fix as no abilities can be used when units are garisoned in vehicles/buildings
It hardly constitutes as an unfair.
What you list as a ''series of nerfs'' is actually a single unit adjustment-just one!
And its still quite usable and effective...just not cheap as chips

FOO arty was a bug fix, not a nerf.
Piat was a bug fix not a nerf.
How you consider the addition of wire cutters as a nerf is beyond understanding

In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.

There are no plans to make further changes to vanila balance apart from necessary fixes.

Cheers

The bren was OP for a reason. The lack of INF/Mobility and enormous cost for brits REQUIRE something like the bren. And now its nerfed again.

The brits were not OP before kanger.
The kanger is OP but loaded Kangers cost a LOT. This seems to have be misread by many. A kangeroo loaded costs potentially more than 1000 + addional costs in Ammo and weapons.
The kanger could have been amended - like only having one officer slot and one squad slot only.
The kanger is one of the few late game teeth brits have.
The NERFS are nerfs, and removal of the ambush and claiming its not nerfed is just flat out wrong.

As for the rest of your comments, well, its clear you have a chip on shoulder as some do about Brits. No matter, all I tried to say was this came across as a lot of nerfing, and it is a lot of nerfing. If the teams intention is to make no more large scale changes - re brits, then the brits are now again badly imbalanced in multiple ways.

(I note your point regarding Pios in thread - and true, that helps with a balance issue - Thanks)

[ChocoboKnight88]

Here's my thoughts on the changes.

* Kangaroo Manpower cost increased to 300 from 240.
* Kangaroo Fuel cost increased to 45 from 10.
* Kangaroo Health decrease from 650 to 550.
* Kangaroo Build time increased from 35 to 45 seconds.

Great changes. Not quite as hard hitting as the changes I had in mind but if the experts think it's okay now...

* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.

I agree that their MG was overpowered but I honestly think that these changes (Maybe a nerf to it's health too) make it justifiable to have it replace the Stuart instead of the Command Tank. It's not a fair tradeoff anymore.

* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds.

I agree with this too. It's not too much at all. I can still take out MG and Mortar Teams easily with this time frame while it still let's my enemy have a chance to move his main infantry out of the area if he reacts immediately.

* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced.

I've never relied of PIAT Sappers for Anti-Infantry duty so I'm indifferent to this change. But if this allows for there to be one less thing to complain about from the community, I'm all for it!

* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving.

It's only common sense to fix what is broken after all.

* Sappers now has wire cutters.

This is not a nerf at all. You just need to be careful not to click directly on the sandbags. But even so, I find natural cover to be more reliable than sandbags anyway. It makes it less predictable as to where my Sappers are that way.

* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing.

This is a smart change that I welcome wholeheartedly. While I am a fan of Sappers in Bren Carriers, this makes things a lot fairer for the opposing side. Auto repair is no longer a bulletproof shield you can activate when you get in trouble. People were suggesting nerfing their base stats which would have destroyed the Bren Carrier's viability. I'm glad the developers made the right decision to focus on the real problem, auto-repair.

To correct AdmV0rl0n, the Bren Carrier can still use it's weapons during auto-repair, provided that you never upgraded it yet. When you fill the Bren Carrier with Bren-equipped infantry, all weapons remain operational while it's health regenerates at a rate faster than the enemy can damage it during early game. This made the Bren-in-Bren overpowered. Something needed to be done.

* Tommy Bren gun can no longer use Button Up while garrisoned.

Provided that the change works as intended, it would help greatly reduce the Kangaroos immense power. Sure, I'm going to miss being able to button from building and trenches but I doubt it it was possible to ban button from being used in vehicles alone anyway.

Pios no longer get elite armour at vet2 meaning Brits can rip them apart-that constitutes as a fix for that problem

The fixed pak is also a big boost to brits and US and in a far bigger way than the Roo or the Button

True, it makes them vulnerable for longer to small arms fire. But when it comes to team games, it's not going to help as much. The enemy won't be as easy to cut off from fuel and he'll be free to reach Vet 3 soon enough. It only delays the inevitable. That's why I feel it isn't enough. Just my opinion.

The Pak being fixed is also a great way to help the allies, I agree. There's no question about that.

All I'm really after personally is a few bug fixes that makes things work as intended. But seeing as to how Commandos gaining veterancy from Officers doesn't seem to be on the agenda, may I ask what it is that stops the developers from making this change, despite it clearly being a bug? Because it's unnecessary?

[AdmV0rl0n]

re Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.

Sappers.
I don't care about wether it gets wirecutters. I care that giving them wirecutters and removing the ambush is not seen as a nerf. You can add in there the forever annoyed about brit never being able to block a road. But all aside, I actually don't care whatanyone else says, I'm saying its a nerf because the ambush has been removed. And it was and is the only brit hidden unit, so yes, its a Nerf from where I sit.

"To correct AdmV0rl0n, the Bren Carrier can still use it's weapons during auto-repair, provided that you never upgraded it yet. When you fill the Bren Carrier with Bren-equipped infantry, all weapons remain operational while regenerates it's health at a rate faster than the enemy can damage it during early game. This made the Bren-in-Bren overpowered. Something needed to be done."

To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.

And now I'm actually antagonised, because none of you seem to have realised the brit ambush has been wacked.

[ChocoboKnight88]

To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.

I'm not out to antagonise you. You said that the Bren Carrier's weapons cease to function when auto repair is activated. This is a misleading statement since it only applies to upgunned Bren Carriers (Which is widely agreed on as being balanced). It's also true that the Bren Carriers has been nerfed several times in the past but it also recieved great buffs. Such as having increased health when upgunned and recieving the Button ability.

You are looking at the sandbag change in the completely wrong way. Look at the positives like being able to use unupgraded Sappers to destroy the enemy's wire and sandbags for free. Plus Sappers don't need to rely on sandbags alone for their ambush ability to work. Any light and heavy cover on the battlefield work nicely. Plus it's not like you need to click directly on the sandbags to make infantry use them. You can click right next to them to avoid destroying them with your wire cutters. Sure, there could be a potential of clicking them by accident but it's still avoidable.

[AdmV0rl0n]

To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.

I'm not out to antagonise you. You said that the Bren Carrier's weapons cease to function when auto repair is activated. This is a misleading statement since it only applies to upgunned Bren Carriers (Which is widely agreed on as being balanced). It's also true that the Bren Carriers has been nerfed several times in the past but it also recieved great buffs. Such as having increased health when upgunned and recieving the Button ability.

You are looking at the sandbag change in the completely wrong way. Look at the positives like being able to use unupgraded Sappers to destroy the enemy's wire and sandbags for free. Plus Sappers don't need to rely on sandbags alone for their ambush ability to work. Any light and heavy cover on the battlefield work nicely. Plus it's not like you need to click directly on the sandbags to make infantry use them. You can click right next to them to avoid destroying them with your wire cutters. Sure, there could be a potential of clicking them by accident but it's still avoidable.

I'll have to check this. I've noted the icon is missing. Perhaps the ability is there automatcially now when in cover.
If so, then its true, no nerf

[ChocoboKnight88]

Just checked for you. It would seem that Sappers lose their Wirecutters when upgraded with PIATs and gain their Ambush ability. Looks like your ambush tactics aren't in danger at all.

In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.

I'll admit that I reacted badly when I first saw the changelog but I'm over it now. Almost none of the changes in anyway truly impact the way I play the British. But I was still hoping that Commando vet and Demo Sappers would be fixed. One can only dream I suppose.

[Seeme]

If it as up to me, I think all infantry should have a ambush button when in heavy cover. But of course people will shout OP OP OP OP. I am a expert on ambushes and COH makes it really hard.

[GreenApple]

But I was still hoping that Commando vet and Demo Sappers would be fixed. One can only dream I suppose.

Indeed, but what do you mean with Demo Sappers. Do you mean Demo's as Commando Demo's, so that you can place them everywhere?
 

I am a expert on ambushes and COH makes it really hard.

[ChocoboKnight88]

Do you mean Demo's as Commando Demo's, so that you can place them everywhere?

Hell no! That's just plain unnecessary. I'm refering to the bug that causes the Demo Sapper's modifiers to break. You know how Relic made the change to make Demo Sappers move like Recon Sections in enemy territory? Well it's kind of buggy.

As long as Demo Sappers aren't near any Lieutenants, they can move back and forth between friendly and enemy territory much like Recon Sections can. But if they are caught in the Lieutenant's aura even once while in uncontrolled territory, they become dependent on the Lieutenant to move through that territory, just like normal infantry. If the Lieutenant gets killed or moves away from the Demo Sappers while they are in enemy territory, Demo Sappers will move as slow as Infantry Sections through uncontrolled territory.

This bug bothers me so much because I was the very person who suggested this change during the playtest Relic had before TOV was released. To have them support Recon Sections when flanking enemy defences without having to break your Lieutenants away from your main forces. The change was also made when I explained that it also helps them clear mines more effectively without having having to drag a vulnerable Lieutenant along. Relic implemented and kept the change beyond the playtest but it wasn't implemented correctly.

I think it has something to do with Demo Sappers not being not treated as an exception to the Lieutenant's speed modifier. Something like that anyway... YurdleTheTurtle knows how to fix it for sure since he fixed it in his mod.

[AbhMkh]

I DO NOT agree with the nerf to the roos but as to the sappers im indifferent , never used piat or ordinary sappers for anti infantry duties  , dissapointed with the bren tommies(who the devil thinks its op)

brits dont have any late game anti infantry measure


cromwells - how many will you make??

commando hmg - late game , doctrine specific

bren or riflenades tommies cease to exist afore mp44 and pz4 if or lmg or .....you knw wht


The roo was the only late game ai measure , nerfing it was unecessary



I'd like to have a chat with these "EXPERTS" who suggested these nerfs


I think they want to make brits a completely defensive faction

The Comet is a welcome change , i loved it , can take on panzers at close ranges now , great job developers on this one!!