Is the PE muni halftrack OP? [1.20]

[Paciat]

1.20 patch made some changes to original COH units. One of them was to make PE muni halftrack reinforce troops and cost no fuel.

This means that PE needs only 55Fuel to get 4 man MP44 squads with reinforce (and placing mines) possibility.
This means that PE will be way to OP in early-mid game becouse they wont need to retreat.
Mini halftrack has better armor than infantry halftrack so only Stuarts and upgunned BRENs can defeat them. The problem with Stuarts is that they can apear on the battlefield after 80Fuel. BREN carriers need 90 muni for AP to get a 1st AP round and get overwhelmed by MP44 anyway.

My point is that reinforcing Muni halftracks should cost 10-20Fuel.

[Nicolasas]

What does op stand for? You are right, they will be overpowered.

[Newbie.]

What does op stand for? You are right, they will be overpowered.

Overpowered.

[Strayker]

Yeah i also think that this change will make it little OP. I think it should either cost 10-20 fuel as said and only do its role as it was in vanilla COH or have an ability to reinforce squads like an Infantry Halftrack but then it should cost more fuel...But im for the first option.

[GamblerSK]

we need to wait until the patch will get out and after few games we gonna see how much is it OP.
Don't forget that PGs are expensive to reinforce but i agree with at least 10 fuel it should cost

[Blackbishop]

It has zero offensive capability, doesnt transport troops and only place mines that aren't free, now has more sense to have it, you can reinforce your troops on the battlefield without building the Kampfgruppe Kompanie, and that doesn't mean you don't need to skip it.

Before, if you build one of these you usually move it near pgrens to allow "fast abilities", if your squad is reduced to 1 soldier, you used to retreat, or before that happened you move them to a forward hq or near of an Infantry Halftrack; but not any more... It's an interesting decision, and will allow PE to use more frecuently mines as other factions IMHO.

I don't see it as OP, it's easier to mow infantry with a halftrack without mg that also can't garrison troops than one with mg who can .

[Seeme]

Lots of people I played with says its going to be op, and I think so too. Its a muni halftrack guys, not a manpower one. Its delievers ammo and guns and such. Please change it back. And why no fuel? Its a halftrack, it uses gas. But I rather change the reinforce.

[Blackbishop]

My point is that reinforcing Muni halftracks should cost 10-20Fuel.

Sorry Paciat, I missed that lines ... I agree with the fuel cost of 10, if costs 15~20 is too much for a vehicle that cannot defend by itself.

And why no fuel? Its a halftrack, it uses gas.

In a strict sense that isn't a valid reason to add fuel cost; Jeeps, bikes, scout cars, funkwagens, kettens and schwims also use gas ...

The fuel cost could be needed if the muniHT will reinforce, I think 10 is ok. And I still missing the 'OP' point of this, its just a defensive-oriented HT, could someone post the reasons?

What about if has better armor than IHT? Hallelujah! It was time for PE to get a useful 'resilient' vehicle, it doesn't wield even a small gun to defend neither heals. If they put 10 as fuel cost then fine we can use it nevertheless, but if they remove the reinforce ability then will be completely useless again.

Well... OP or not, we'll know it soon, the release of the patch is closer ...

P.S. When I said reasons of being 'OP' I mean which ones besides fuel cost .

[GodlikeDennis]

I actually think it will be fine. PGrens will still be dominated by Ami infantry and the reinforce cost of 45 is huge. It will fit in to the faction much better as a mobile force and can also help with some defensive operations. Though I think it's armour type should be changed from the wehr halftrack type to the infantry halftrack type as it's a little too resilient at that stage.

[Paciat]

My point is that reinforcing Muni halftracks should cost 10-20Fuel.

Sorry Paciat, I missed that lines ... I agree with the fuel cost of 10, if costs 15~20 is too much for a vehicle that cannot defend by itself.

Bergetiger?
Unoccupied US and wehrmacht halftracks?
British trucks?

And why no fuel? Its a halftrack, it uses gas.

In a strict sense that isn't a valid reason to add fuel cost; Jeeps, bikes, scout cars, funkwagens, kettens and schwims also use gas ...

The fuel cost could be needed if the muniHT will reinforce, I think 10 is ok. And I still missing the 'OP' point of this, its just a defensive-oriented HT, could someone post the reasons?
[/quote]
The OP point is that you can drive near a HQ truck and rape British infantry with MP44 all day long.
Theres no need for a HT MG becouse MP44 firepower is all you need.

You probably seen an MP44 blob raping any infantry on the fiel untill it looses some men and need to reinforce.
With IHT you can allways be on the field (and secure points with mines too).
Normally you would need 40fuel more to do that but then UK would have Stuarts then so you would need Shrecks...

[Chancellor]

BARs > charging Mp44s    Pgrens with just Mp44 upgrades are paper tigers, and they will never survive the charge to close range to make their Mp44s effective.  Their reinforce cost per man are also sky high.  This isn't even considering when the riflesquads eventually get vet 1-2, which is not too hard to achieve ever since the ToV patch.

Perhaps simply getting rid of the reinforce ability but keeping the cost to 0 fuel is OK.  IMO the reason why the muni HT was changed to cost no fuel is because its underused, and in all honesty, PE really needs a non-doctrinal / no fuel cost unit that can lay mines, because the Stuart is really a problem sometimes.

[Blackbishop]

Bergetiger?
Unoccupied US and wehrmacht halftracks?
British trucks?

Bergetiger - crappy hull mg, resurrects vehicles, tiger chasis... its worth it; compare it with a sdkf. 251... I think its unfair.

US & Wehr halftracks - If I have problems defending my halftrack I upgrade it to defend itself from anything on it's scope. I'm not talking about assaulting with HT, but there's a difference between:
Case 1:

• a)attacking a volksgrenadier with Rifleman supported by a HT.
  
• b)the same but supported with a HT with a 'X squad inside'.
• c)the same but supported with a Quad .50 Cal Maxson

Case 2:

• a)attacking a Rifleman with volksgrenadier supported by a HT.
  
• b)the same but supported with a HT with a 'X squad inside'.
• c)the same but supported with a Stuka/Flammenwerfer HT

Case 3:

• a)attacking with PGrens supported by a muniHT a Rifleman squad.

British Trucks - why do you involve those? they are the "buildings" for the british you cannot compare them. The only common thing is that have wheels and reinforce infantry.

The OP point is that you can drive near a HQ truck and rape British infantry with MP44 all day long.
Theres no need for a HT MG becouse MP44 firepower is all you need.

You probably seen an MP44 blob raping any infantry on the fiel untill it looses some men and need to reinforce.
With IHT you can allways be on the field (and secure points with mines too).
Normally you would need 40fuel more to do that but then UK would have Stuarts then so you would need Shrecks...

Thanks for telling me !! Now I understand your concern, but IMO PE insatiably hungry about munitions and if you are planting mines whenever the wind blows you wont have any weapon upgrade ready at that time.

If I were a british player facing that situation(base raping threat with muniHT and pgren w/MP44), I would probably expected that and have a trench "ready" for that use. Probably you will say "a fire grenade will do short work of that" but that's CoH about... great fights, traps & counters . Perhaps if it's limited, just 1 unit on the field .

I actually think it will be fine. PGrens will still be dominated by Ami infantry and the reinforce cost of 45 is huge. It will fit in to the faction much better as a mobile force and can also help with some defensive operations. Though I think it's armour type should be changed from the wehr halftrack type to the infantry halftrack type as it's a little too resilient at that stage.

+1
Perhaps it could earn better armor with vet, I suppose that only gets defensive as all the PE vehicles that don't have weapons(except the bergetiger that has crappy hull mg) .

P.S. When I say traps i mean Camouflaged units and items as mines, charges or booby traps .

[GodlikeDennis]

Booby traps can't be detected.

Something I just realised this awesome patch doesn't fix at all is trenches. The fact that building just one (for free) slows down PE teching by 20 fuel is unbelievably unfair. Trenches should require LT/Field Support.  --Offtopic, nobody respond to this but it's a point I just thought needed to be made.

Paciat: If he allowed you to get to his truck with an MP44 blob + halftrack I'd say he stuffed up anyway.

[Zerstörer]

You guys should wait and play a few games with the new patch before crying 'OP' or 'UP', because all the changes work together to change the game dynamics.

All these vanila changes have been very well thought of and tested.

Introducing balance changes to vanila factions is a 'slippery slope' ,which is why we have decided  to introduce only a minimal number of essential fixes which no one can really disagree on. Trenches isn't one of them (but if you noticed there is a small change cause infantry can no longer button vehicles when in a trench/Bren/building/Roo!).

Muni halftrack cannot transport troops and has no MG. Re-charging abilities and laying regular mines isn't that great since you have to have the muni for them. Reinforce and no fuel cost makes it a viable investment on a non combat vehicle for the fuel hungry PE

[Desert_Fox]

Anyway...I'll build you a monument for fixed Kangaroos! 

About Ammo HT i'll try it