Soviet tech suggestion

[wordsmith]

Soviet concept suggestion

by Wordsmith

The reason of this article is to propose slight changes to Soviet army [1.11] which IMO could improve the overall balance and playability of EF.

Since new patch [1.11] I had indefinite feeling that something is not right in Soviet tech tree. So I took all Soviet units and tried to arrange them into summary chart where I wanted to assign Soviet units according to their roles in game. I used this article as reference:
--> General unit summary analysis

I just made a simplification and used following groups to which I assigned unit capabilities:

1. Anti Infantry - basic combat ability to fight infantry directly.

2. Scout - ability to scout terrain in front of advancing troops. Usually fast vehicles or cloakable infantry. Also comes with ability to hunt down and kill snipers effectively.

3. Indirect Combat - ability to bombard designated area with non-direct weapons. Usually deadly to all infantry units and dangerous to buildings.

4. Anti Tank - ability to hunt down and kill armored vehicles.

5. Diversion - means non-direct combat techniques like laying mines, ability to plant demolition charges or booby trap points. In case of PE it means also recovering wrecks of killed vehicles or using Vampire HT as radar and Goliath producer.

Usual goal is to make a mix of units which covers all those roles to some point so it will be able to deal with anything necessary on the battlefield. F.e. Soviet mix: T90, Su85, Mortar, Engineers.

The result is attached to this post, I made Soviet, *Wehr and PE units analysis. Same could be done also for Brit and US, and for Ostheer concepts too

Here's the Soviet chart:

I.  Soviet tech

The main problems are the upgrades in Support Barracks and in Tank Hall. Soviet player really doesn't have to decide very hard which option to choose because the unlocked units cover wide variety of combat roles, mainly AT capability. This means either he choose Close or Medium range support he will have quite versatile units available. And same apply to Light or Heavy Tankovy upgrades. Result is that with few units available players tend to spam only those units then and not research another upgrades. It practically force player to spam only 1-2 units, which are available.

Another thing is Command squad which is now obligation to get for Soviet (there's simple no choice on that).

My proposal is following:



HQ and Command squad - as I mentioned, now the Soviet doesn't really have any option on this - he just must build one Commander. To add a tactical diversity I propose Soviet player to start with 25 Fuel and Command squad cost + Support barracks cost increase to 25 Fuel too. This way player will have 2 options what to build in the beginning of the game - either Support barracks or Command squad. Fuel cost for Commander could represent that he needs to move with his staff from Moscow to battle area. Btw this is the idea of Paciat and I think very good idea and I support it.

Support Barracks - should have 2 upgrades: Support units and Specialist training. As it is clear from analysis, Support units upgrade will give player possibility to build support units only - meaning with only 1 actual role in game (Mortar and AT gun). On the other hand Specialist training will give player more versatile units but for higher price (Sniper and PTRD teams). Again player will have to decide tactically what to get, either cheaper upgrade but less versatility or more expensive one but with bigger possibilities.

Tank Hall - should have 2 options too: Light tankovy upgrade and Medium tankovy upgrade, but exactly according to their names should unlock only light tanks (T70/90) or medium tanks (T34, Su85).  This should be player's another tactical decision if stick to quick light vehicles or wait and get medium tanks later. The situation now is that Soviet player really doesn't have to think about the upgrades because he will not make any mistake - with Light tankovy upgrade he gets fast vehicles and mobile AT gun too. Getting both Tankovy upgrades should unlock IS2 then.

Rest of the tech mechanics could remain the same (Strelky and Guards availability).

*Note to Wehr analysis: Wehrmacht unit availability (in terms of fuel cost) could be misleading becasue here is displayed only shortest possible route. Usually also lower tier buildings are needed to keep battlefield presence. Also Wehr veterancy means that all present and new produced units will have it.

[Blackbishop]

Those are the best thoughts i read . Sounds interesting, I would like to see something like this on soviets. I wonder what the devs have planned to fix balance on 1.2.

P.S. Wanna Be Like You When I Grow Up!

[wordsmith]

Those are the best thoughts i read . Sounds interesting, I would like to see something like this on soviets. I wonder what the devs have planned to fix balance on 1.2.

P.S. Wanna Be Like You When I Grow Up!

Hehe thank you I'm flattered. I just want to contribute and help this awesome mod.

P.S.: I don't know why but reading your post I recalled a quote from my favorite movie "Seven Samurai", as Kambei Shimada said:

"You embarrass me. You're overestimating me. Listen, I'm not a man with any special skill, but I've had plenty of experience in battles; losing battles, all of them. In short, that's all I am. Drop such an idea for your own good. "

[GodlikeDennis]

I actually only skim read your idea wordsmith because i think it's too late to change Russian teching and it's fairly good how it is. But I did want to say that you should probably separate the categories of AT into Anti-Tank and Anti-Vehicle, since the T-70 for instance has no chance against a tank. Just a suggestion. Also, while you do have the option to go WS start in your idea, nobody would as you would only get a mortar and an AT gun available. Which seems rather pointless. Not to mention the fact that you would want a CS from the start now more than ever since vet is going to be put in and you would want him to start earning straight away.

[wordsmith]

The propsed idea is not such a big change that it couldn't be made in the next patch f.e.

I used simplification of course, AT capability could be divided into sub-categories, also Anti Infantry - long range, close range etc. but then the chart would be hard to read. And T70 has stated "limited capability" as AT which means exactly that it is not fully capable to fight armors.

About WS you are right of course, Commander has more priority than WS but my idea is that it should have also fuel cost because it is unique unit. Even now without retreat is Commander hard to beat, with retreating it would be nearly impossible so IMO fuel cost for it is justified. And fast WSC could help in 2v2 or more player games, and also on chokepoint maps (mortars), vs PE vehicles (AT gun) or vs bunkers (both).

The main reason is to add tactical diversity, more options to choose - because now Soviet player really doesn't have to choose. The variety available with only 2 upgrades gives Soviet good chance to fight anything Axis could throw at him. The reason is separate one role units from multi-role and pay more for versatility.

[Zerstörer]

Its always appreciated to see people thinking about teh faction more deeply and making good posts.

As such I think it would be fair for me to explain why I made the teching the way I did.

Let's start with the support barracks. The most straight forward way would have been to split them AT/AI units,yes. However, doing that would effectively mean you'd need twice the researches to get Tier2, and you would definitely need to make both of them because Tier2 for WH/PE bring armour and strong infantry. So, what's the point in having two seperate researches when you actually have make both of them. Its hardly a true option. Remember that Soviet infantry are not the us riflemen all rounders with Bars and stickies. Their support units are a must have unlike 30cal/US mortar.
By splitting them the way I have now,it means you don't really have to make both researches and can move on to tier3. This makes for more flexible teching.

For Tank hull, we used to have it so that you would tech up to T70/90 and then at Tier3 get T34/SU.
99% of people always saved the fuel to get the T34/SU and never made the T70/90 because by that time they needed both AT and AI. By attaching the SU to the T70/90 you have something equivalent to WH tier3. This makes it far more attractive and you can forgo getting T34s alltogether depending on doctrine choice etc.
The SU is the soviet equivalent for the stug, except that its very fragile(3 pak shots kill it, like an M8 and is more vulnerable to shreks), more expensive, better vs vehicles and worse vs Infantry.


We have now tweaked the pricing of the teching further ensuring that T70/90/SU hit the field at the same time as Pumas/Stugs. Splitting them as described would reduce tactical diversity rather than increase it, which is why i've opted for the current system. We've also made it so that it requires both researches in the tank hull to get the IS2 increasing the time it takes to get it on the field considerably.
As for the command squad, we want it as a 'must have core hero unit' which is essential to the Soviet flavour. The idea is that they vet up and gain abilities while the faction techs up. You can't really have an infantry unit costing fuel either.
I hope that clears it up more

[GodlikeDennis]

Aww, you changed the fuel costs? Now I have to edit my vehicle guide. I also think it makes sense to have each upgrade unlock an AI and AT unit. It allows you to tech to a different building but still have both roles covered with the one tech.

[wordsmith]

Let's start with the support barracks. The most straight forward way would have been to split them AT/AI units,yes. However, doing that would effectively mean you'd need twice the researches to get Tier2, and you would definitely need to make both of them because Tier2 for WH/PE bring armour and strong infantry. So, what's the point in having two seperate researches when you actually have make both of them. Its hardly a true option. Remember that Soviet infantry are not the us riflemen all rounders with Bars and stickies. Their support units are a must have unlike 30cal/US mortar.
By splitting them the way I have now,it means you don't really have to make both researches and can move on to tier3. This makes for more flexible teching.

Thank you for the explanation. Sometimes I wonder what is the reason behind some upgrades/units in EF and your post unveil some of those points. However I must add my remarks too, I hope you understand that they're valid... at least to some point

First Support Barracks, this is misunderstanding - I do not propose to separate AI units from AT. As I wrote - the reason is to separate one role units from mulitiple role units. Because in my suggestion you either have cheaper upgrade giving Mortar (AI) and AT gun (AT) or more expensive upgrade which delays further tech to Tank Hall giving Sniper (AI) and PTRD teams (AT). Both Sniper and PTRD could be then used to other army roles, Sniper could call arty and PTRD could fight infantry to some point and lay mines. That is why they should be in multirole group, they're more versatile units. Also researching one Support Barracks upgrade will unlock the Strelky so Soviet will have some solid force to fight in middle game.

For Tank hull, we used to have it so that you would tech up to T70/90 and then at Tier3 get T34/SU.
99% of people always saved the fuel to get the T34/SU and never made the T70/90 because by that time they needed both AT and AI. By attaching the SU to the T70/90 you have something equivalent to WH tier3. This makes it far more attractive and you can forgo getting T34s alltogether depending on doctrine choice etc.
The SU is the soviet equivalent for the stug, except that its very fragile(3 pak shots kill it, like an M8 and is more vulnerable to shreks), more expensive, better vs vehicles and worse vs Infantry. We have now tweaked the pricing of the teching further ensuring that T70/90/SU hit the field at the same time as Pumas/Stugs. Splitting them as described would reduce tactical diversity rather than increase it, which is why i've opted for the current system.

I understand your point. The problem is that now it is same situation (at least in 1v1 or even 2v2) - no one ever bothers to tech T34, everybody is getting fast T90+Su85 combo. Again as I tried to show in my analysis - Soviet will get pretty decent package including good AI and AT at same time.

I understand that you plan to tweak the cost of it which is ok if it should reflect Tier3 of Wehr. Please keep in mind that Wehr player needs to tech twice to get Tier3 while Soviet just once to get Light tank.upgr. My guess Light tankovy upgrade should be available about +30 Fuel later than it is now.

As for the command squad, we want it as a 'must have core hero unit' which is essential to the Soviet flavour. The idea is that they vet up and gain abilities while the faction techs up. You can't really have an infantry unit costing fuel either.
I hope that clears it up more

As for Commander, this unit is in fact very good AI because he's hard to kill. With retreat it will be even harder. But I gues if you tweak this unit to get more powerfull and more abilities only with vet that then it would be ok.

I know that fuel cost for infantry is nonsence but this is a Commander we're talking about, limited to only one unit in game. British LT and Captains costs fuel too. I know they're necesasary to tech and have different role but it is example that nothing is imprinted into stone.

[Zerstörer]

I understand your point. The problem is that now it is same situation (at least in 1v1 or even 2v2) - no one ever bothers to tech T34, everybody is getting fast T90+Su85 combo. Again as I tried to show in my analysis - Soviet will get pretty decent package including good AI and AT at same time.

I believe this is related to the current low fuel cost of both the units and of the upgrade, not the fact that you get the SU. If you go for these at the moment, they come a bit too early and too easily, hence why its a favored tactic. That will change with the amended costs. The fact remains that you get fragile tanks with this upgrade, where as with teh T34s you get resilient tanks. Also the change to get the IS2 will also make a difference as its not an easy fall back move any more.

PTRDs are specialist AT unit, they're being tweaked as well so they're not good at all vs infantry really but get a bit better vs vehicles. They no longer have normal mines.

My guess Light tankovy upgrade should be available about +30 Fuel later than it is now.

A good guess 

You'll have to wait and see all the changes....as we're still working on all the stuff

[Red_Stinger]

I understand your point. The problem is that now it is same situation (at least in 1v1 or even 2v2) - no one ever bothers to tech T34, everybody is getting fast T90+Su85 combo. Again as I tried to show in my analysis - Soviet will get pretty decent package including good AI and AT at same time.

I believe this is related to the current low fuel cost of both the units and of the upgrade, not the fact that you get the SU. If you go for these at the moment, they come a bit too early and too easily, hence why its a favored tactic. That will change with the amended costs. The fact remains that you get fragile tanks with this upgrade, where as with teh T34s you get resilient tanks. Also the change to get the IS2 will also make a difference as its not an easy fall back move any more.

PTRDs are specialist AT unit, they're being tweaked as well so they're not good at all vs infantry really but get a bit better vs vehicles. They no longer have normal mines.

My guess Light tankovy upgrade should be available about +30 Fuel later than it is now.

A good guess 

You'll have to wait and see all the changes....as we're still working on all the stuff

1) If PTRD unit dont have normal mines anymore, what are there options?

2) I agree with the idea of Paciat: commander should cost fuel, because its, as you said, its a 'core hero unit', and its the only infantry unit which soviet can rely on.

3) T34 are resilient tanks, but they accuracy is pretty low. What is the point of having a strong which cant hit something? Players go for T90 /SU85 combo because both of these are far more accurate, and are still fast, mean that they can retreat there tanks when the situation go wrong for them!

4) I agree (again!) with wordsmith idea for SSB: separate role unit and more versatile unit can give a more interesting choice for the player, since these unit are essential for him. Strelky and conscript can only fight against infantry, and often need the help of the commander. If a Werh player can get a Puma its dead for them!

I guess that your patch will be a good answer to these problems, and will diversify soviet's tech choice 

[Zerstörer]

1) If PTRD unit dont have normal mines anymore, what are there options ?

Ahhhh...they have something new and special...more fitting to their role 

[Blackbishop]

1) If PTRD unit dont have normal mines anymore, what are there options ?

Ahhhh...they have something new and special...more fitting to their role 

!!! he is playing mind games!!!

[wordsmith]

1) If PTRD unit dont have normal mines anymore, what are there options ?

Ahhhh...they have something new and special...more fitting to their role 

I guess again: "Aim at engine" similar to threadbreaker ability which disables the vehicle, could be used only when shooting from behind.

Btw on off this topic: I'm afraid that with establishment of payable abilities for Soviet (Ammo cost for every ability) the whole idea of making Soviet unique will dissappear (global upgrades, retreat...)

[Zerstörer]

Using abilities is still free true to the original design, its just the upgrades that cost muni as they should

"Aim at engine"

Nah that'd be a bit too close to treadbreaker...anyways, you'll see 

[Red_Stinger]

Using abilities is still free true to the original design, its just the upgrades that cost muni as they should

"Aim at engine"

Nah that'd be a bit too close to treadbreaker...anyways, you'll see 

In EF dev I trust!!