My idea for Soviet Vet

[Paciat]

Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.

Its just like spamming vet 3 Panthers or Panther battlegroups...
But sure, there sould be a IS-2 unlock upgrade or KV85(Churchill armor)->IS-2 upgrade.
If any tank should be spammed by Soviets it should be T-34.

For your information, no one spams vet3 panthers. Panthers are insanely expensive and preform way below par against infantry. One panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment. Buying vet for your panthers is even worse. If you are planning this kind of strategy in a 1v1 you might as well not even start the game even if you are playing against a semi-braindead opponent.

Im talking about Soviets. Panthers like IS-2 "insanely expensive". Panther battlegroups are "insanely cheap". A vet 1 Panther will defeat an IS-2, AT granades arent too usefull on moving tanks, ZIS-2 guns arent as good as US 57mm and can be retaken, Soviets have no Elite AT infantry. This makes Panther spamming a good tactic if they will work with units that you build earlier in the game.
Panthers arent that accurate vs infantry but when infantry cant retreat its easier to finish them off.

As Ive said before:
"there sould be a IS-2 unlock upgrade or KV85(Churchill armor)->IS-2 upgrade"
I also dont like that IS-2 can be build so early in the game.

Sure, you can say that Soviets are unbalanced (as much as British) but most of the forum dosnt want mirror games.
...
When I first saw EF on youtube it was still in development stage. I saw 3 types of infantry (like wehrmacht), sniper team (OP sniper), Soviet 57mm,  T-34 (sherman), T-70 (M-8), T-90 (Puma), IS-2 (Panther) and Soviet infantry gaining vet like US troops.
I asked myself "why do I need this OP mode that will change my original game (I didnt know that it will be an add on) if I have all of that in the vanilla COH?"

Just because there are 3 types of infantry doesn't mean they are the exact same as their Wehr counterparts. For example, MP40 upgraded Volks become excellent flankers or counter-flankers and scale well into the mid-late game. Conscripts are cannon fodder even with the upgrade. Strelky don't have any AT unlike the grens which are devastating against alied tanks. Guards are tough, versatile baddasses, but don't have the short range anti-infantry punch that the Knight's Cross have. Calling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman, Panzer 4 and Cromwell. Almost every faction has their respective medium tank and the only faction that doesn't have one is the PE (which is why they are considered underpowered, as they lack a meat shield unit).The T-90 is not a Puma. Not even remotely simmilar to a Puma. First off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit. The Panther and the IS-2 are also different. Just because they are heavy tanks doesn't make them the same. First off, the Panther is one of the fastest tanks in the game, the IS-2 is very slow. The panther performs badly against infantry, while the IS-2 is excellent against both armour and infantry.
With all due respect, your understanding of COH and even your beloved Soviet faction if very shallow and I advise you gain some experience before poking your eyes into balance discussions. Don't take this personaly

As I said that was my first look at a Soviet fraction.

I like that Soviet T-34 is less accurate but can get an earlier than sherman gun+accuracy upgrade. I like the T-90 double MG.
But the thing I like most is that all resources are global (untill you get a tank depot).
Ammo as a global resource makes Soviets more communist. 
No recrew makes them a drafted army.
I like that Soviets are unique.

US and Wehrmacht are similar in many ways but they managed to stay unique.
With Wehracht type of vet, re-crew and retreat, Soviets will be a copy of US and Wehrmacht fractions with only minor changes. Similar tactics, similar prioritets, similar style of play.

[Cranialwizard]

No sir, I think YOU are wrong.

Panthers are NOT some of the fastest tanks in the game. If anything, they are a mediocre-borderline slow.

One panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment.

The panther performs badly against infantry,

Two statements that are very Wrong.

Okay, sure. The panthers cost a nice heap of manpower and fuel, not to mention the added Vet and Pop Cap.

Making your tanks Vet 3 solves infantry problems with 2-3 MGS on your tanks. VERY worth it.
Armor Skirts have saved my Panzers and panthers from Rangers countless times.

And saying the Panther isn't good against infantry is like saying that the PaK can't kill a Sherman.

Panthers have a crush ability, and when in Vet 2-3, they have their gunners.
Blitzkrieg Assault enables the tanks to reach high speeds and leave infantry under it's tracks.
It's MGS can ALSO suppress infantry.

Not to mention, if you hold a high amount of territory in a large field or long game, 2 or 3 Panthers is enough to destroy your enemy.

Group them together or send 1 down the middle and the 2 on the flanks.

Calling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman

The two tanks are LITERALLY clones. The T-34 was reskined and was given a bit extra damage. They have the same armor type. Same effect from Paks/Panthers/Tigers/Panzers.

The T-90 is not a Puma.

That is a true statement.

But...

First off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit.

Using the two as a COMPARISON is a mistake.

The T-90 is Anti Infantry based. I assume when you say Puma you mean 50mm AT upgrade. In this case, NOT useful against a Puma, which is more similar to a T-70.

In the anti-Infantry sense, they are VERY alike. You need to look into Vetting with the Wehr. MGs from Vetting can SUPPRESS. LOOK INTO IT.

I am in defense of Paciat here. His answers make more sense than yours.

[Zerstörer]

The two tanks are LITERALLY clones. The T-34 was reskined and was given a bit extra damage. They have the same armor type. Same effect from Paks/Panthers/Tigers/Panzers.

You guys should really learn to look up stats before doing such inaccurate comparisons...

No, its not anywhere near being a clone...it doesn't perform like a sherman. It isn't even the equivalent of a PZIV,Cromwell  or a Sherman...its something else...a T34

T34/76 - Its more mobile and alot faster than any other medium tank(it keeps up with a puma!!).  Its gun is better at penetrating vehicles than a Sherman 75 but has shorter range and accuracy and isn't as good vs infantry. It also lacks the 50cal upgrade which makes the sherman 75 all so good vs infantry. Clone??...I should think not! It does perform like a medium tank should meaning decnt vs tanks or infantry but not excelling in anything...apart from speed

T34/85-Probably best described and the 'missing link' between a Panzer IV and a Panther. No relation to an upgraded sherman 76 at all...

Alas, plz get back to the topic which is..VET

[Cranialwizard]

I apologize, shortly after posting it a little thought ran in my head:

"What did I forget?"

Speed. Speed is a essential add to the T-34. It holds Sherman armor, is what I meant to say.

The Sherman has similar fire-power in considering it's range. But kudos to the T-34. I spam it all the time.

LONG LIVE T-34 BASE RAIDS!

[Nick]

Alas, plz get back to the topic which is..VET

My vet idea: soviets should gain vet from global upgrades like Wehrmacht do, but vet should be limited by unit tiers. Infantry:conscripts vet 1 only, no further vet, strelky and partisans could get to vet 2, guards and command squad - vet 3.
Tanks: t70 and t90 vet 1,t-34 and su-85 vet 2, is-2,isu-152 and kv-2 vet 3.
Support: ptrd infantry, medic truck and engineers vet 1, mortar and anti tank gun-vet 2, snipers-vet 3. And infantry would gain retreat after purchasing armory upgrades. Maybe command squad should get something like propaganda war,but it could only be used on allied units? Then they wouldn't need to have their own retreat.

[Renas]

No sir, I think YOU are wrong.

Panthers are NOT some of the fastest tanks in the game. If anything, they are a mediocre-borderline slow.

One panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment.

The panther performs badly against infantry,

Two statements that are very Wrong.

Okay, sure. The panthers cost a nice heap of manpower and fuel, not to mention the added Vet and Pop Cap.

Making your tanks Vet 3 solves infantry problems with 2-3 MGS on your tanks. VERY worth it.
Armor Skirts have saved my Panzers and panthers from Rangers countless times.

And saying the Panther isn't good against infantry is like saying that the PaK can't kill a Sherman.

Panthers have a crush ability, and when in Vet 2-3, they have their gunners.
Blitzkrieg Assault enables the tanks to reach high speeds and leave infantry under it's tracks.
It's MGS can ALSO suppress infantry.

Not to mention, if you hold a high amount of territory in a large field or long game, 2 or 3 Panthers is enough to destroy your enemy.

Group them together or send 1 down the middle and the 2 on the flanks.

Calling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman

The two tanks are LITERALLY clones. The T-34 was reskined and was given a bit extra damage. They have the same armor type. Same effect from Paks/Panthers/Tigers/Panzers.

The T-90 is not a Puma.

That is a true statement.

But...

First off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit.

Using the two as a COMPARISON is a mistake.

The T-90 is Anti Infantry based. I assume when you say Puma you mean 50mm AT upgrade. In this case, NOT useful against a Puma, which is more similar to a T-70.

In the anti-Infantry sense, they are VERY alike. You need to look into Vetting with the Wehr. MGs from Vetting can SUPPRESS. LOOK INTO IT.

I am in defense of Paciat here. His answers make more sense than yours.

Your first 2 sentences threw any credibility you might have had down the drain.

Yes, the panther is one of the fastest tanks IN THE GAME. It is by far the fastest heavy tank and outmatches some of the medium tanks as well.

Here are some stats (Taken from COH-Stats.com):

Panther: Max Speed - 5.2, Acceleration - 2.5
Panzer 4: Max Speed - 5, Acceleration - 1.2
Sherman: Max Speed - 5.2, Acceleration - 1.6
Cromwell: Max Speed - 5, Acceleration - 2.2

As you can see, the Panther, being a heavy tank. outmatches every single medium tank in vCoH (Not mentioning EF, because I don't know where to get the exact stats).

So please, stop pulling bullshit "facts" out of nowhere.


Furthermore, saying that assaulting with three Vet3 panthers at the same time is a viable strategy in CoH is nothing more than absolutely retarded. Lets do some basic number crunching:
1 Panther costs 600 Manpower and 110 Fuel.
3 Panthers cost 1800 Manpower and 330 Fuel. Now you are planning to get all three of them simultaneously and attack at the same time.
Thats not counting veterancy.
I'm not sure on the exact figures so please pardon any minor mistakes.
Vet1 - 200 Manpower, 30 Fuel
Vet2 - 300 Manpower, 50 Fuel
Vet3 - 300 Manpower, 70 Fuel
In total, thats 2600 Manpower and 480 Fuel. This is an insane amount of resources. Investing so much into 3 units means you'll have to forget about reinforcing and getting any other units for a long time as you will have to keep pouring everything you are getting into those panthers.Lets not forget pop cap constraints which are huge for 3 panthers alone, not counting any supporting units. This kind of strategy will get you anhialated against any semi-decent american player.


Finaly, the PUMA DOES NOT SUPPRESS infantry. Veterancy does not give it any suppression bonuses.

Please, get your facts straight before coming over here and saying that what I say doesn't make sense.


By the way, what level are you as Wehrmacht online? I'm not talking about the basic match Scheltd and Viere River noobfests, I mean 1v1 Automatch. I doubt you're any higher than lvl 6 because you clearly have no clue about CoH gameplay.


PS. I might sound a little angry and I am. I don't mean to offend, but I will not tolerate some clueless noob bullshitting me and passing off his fantasies as facts.

PSS. This is my last off-topic post,promise, sorry admins, it had to be done .

Over'n Out!

[Paciat]

Panther: Max Speed - 5.2, Acceleration - 2.5
Panzer 4: Max Speed - 5, Acceleration - 1.2
Sherman: Max Speed - 5.2, Acceleration - 1.6
Cromwell: Max Speed - 5, Acceleration - 2.2

As you can see, the Panther, being a heavy tank. outmatches every single medium tank in vCoH

It dosnt outclass a vet 1 Sherman with 1.25 speed bonus (Wehrmaht Panther)
5.2x1.25=6.405 - like a T-34
It dosnt outclass a Cromwell with flank speed on.

Also vet 3 Sherman/76 (1,25 speed and dmg bonus 1,5 penetration bonus) can be compared to T-34/85.
87,5dmgx1,25=109.375 - like a T-34

The higher T-34 76 and 85 penetration stats are balanced by Shermans vet2 1,5 penetration bonus.


I was talking about vet so Im not off topic.  Just joking thats my last post.
Dont post me with M4/76 gun target tables from coh stats.


As for Panther spamming:
If IS-2 spamming is possible than Panther spamming is possible.
Panthers are cheaper than IS-2 and Germans can secure resources.

[wordsmith]

Veterancy should be earned not purchased, the whole buy veterancy of Wehrmacht is wrong IMO. I like to play Wehrmacht much but it's wrong from fundamental, because it encourages camping play and causes unbalanced late game - one example: Vet3 Tiger for 900MP called again and again when destroyed. No Panzer Command needed, no fuel needed more just recycle over and over... every other faction needs to earn veterancy through battle!

However as Paciat wrote, I like the idea of global resources too for Soviets so it could be done by some global upgrade but I would restrict it to level 1 only - but real global, I mean global for whole building: Muster tent, Support barracks or Tank hall. So for example Tank hall upgrade could cost 350 MP and 75 Fuel and all Tank hall units will have level 1 from now. Higher unit levels should be earned later in battle. It would be some combined vet system. Of course vet1 will still be possible to gain through battle too but only individual units.

---*** Off topic but to previous discussion ***---
As for a little dispute here boys I think the problem is that there are more "match options" in CoH:
- classic automatch type, 1v1 500VP
- Annihilation match
- 2v2 or more player matches
- skirmishes
- normal or high resource start...

And for every of those there is different strategy to play, especially playing for VP or when more players are involved it changes a tactical approach a lot. So f.e. 3x Panther vet3 could be insane (not to say impossible to get) in 1v1 automatch game type in 4v4 annihilation game it would be very viable option. If this debate has to have some sence first you need to define what type of match exactly do you mean IMHO, because everyone has good point but seems to me you are talking about different things...

[Paciat]

Veterancy should be earned not purchased, the whole buy veterenacy of Wehrmacht is wrong IMO. I like to play Wehrmacht much but it's wrong from fundamental, because it encourages camping play and causes unbalanced late game

I was allways scared to say something bad about Wehrmacht - the favorite fraction of most players.

I guess US has supply depot upgrades, UK has extra resources from their trucks, PE has Panthers that cost no fuel and veteran Sergeant upgrade to balance that. (Im not saing that it works as it should)

1 thing is for sure. Buyable vet for every unit would make the Soviets more powerfull in late game than Germans.

[Zerstörer]

Also vet 3 Sherman/76 (1,25 speed and dmg bonus 1,5 penetration bonus) can be compared to T-34/85.
87,5dmgx1,25=109.375 - like a T-34

The higher T-34 76 and 85 penetration stats are balanced by Shermans vet2 1,5 penetration bonus.

Not quite...the T34/85 is still considerably superior to the Vet3 sherman because it has 700 hit points and more importantly 'churchill armour type'. This means as a late game tank it can hold up pretty well to schrek wielding squads unlike the sherman or any other brit/US medium tank. Its not as good vs infantry as its lacking the 50 cal upgrade, but it is considerably better vs tanks/vehicles

You'll only ever see Panthers 'spammed' in 3v3+...but that's true with any unit in such games...
WH Vet is fine cause its made so you have to buy it in order to keep up with the allies and their upgrades....and in anything other than 3v3+, you need to decide which parts of your army to vet...in fact few of them will vet up. Classic example being infantry vet...you have to buy 2 levels for your basic infantry squads to be able to stand almost toe to toe with a BAR rifle squad....However you MGs,pios,mortars,snipers remain unvetted making your support units drop like flies to BARs. Because Bars are also unsurpassed in hitting targets while on the move, That makes a successful retreat in the face of the riflemen very unlikely. In turn that makes using unvetted WH squads highly unlikely, thereby limiting the tactical options.

Anyways...next posts I see not relating to vet will be deleted chaps.

[Loupblanc]

 Soviet Vet :
 
 I was thinking earned, but something different.
 Perhaps only 1 level of veterancy? Unit starts real crappy, but once it has it's vet, it's not quite decent? Many references to this.
 
 Strelsky and Guards are basically same unit, historically,
 Except the Guards are high vet Strelsky and get extra
 yummies. Why not do it that way? Can't BUY guards, got
 to go via Strelsky, but those that hit Vet3 become guards?
 As a free upgrade.
 
 Tanks - Was thinking of the idea of a tank leader. Similar
 to the british, but not a gun less tank. It's not an officer
 per se, more of a hero tank. Can only have one at any one
 time,  it's a free upgrade but it gives a limited british tank
 officer aura. (vet 1 only). The upgrade is acquired via
 self-vet (He leads by example)

 (This way, you have vet 0-1 for tanks, and vet +1 via
 Hero - Tank). Max of Vet2.
 
 Do same for infantry. Officer giving +1 vet aura default.
 Can become hero via self-vet (+2 vet aura) and unit's own
 +1 vet makes it max of 3.

 I also think soviet conscripts, etc, should run around slower
 like leaderless tommies, unless in own territory, or close to
 Officer. Guards are exception.

 - What says you?
 It's different, and still has room for crappy initial soviet
 vet/feel. But historically, once those got their veterancy
 (combat experience) They became quite nasty/decent.

 - Red Banner Strelsky could be considered 'heroes' as well.
 Upgrade to guards and Red Banner strelsky merely unlocks
 possible upgrades for vetted Strelskys. Can't buy 'Made thus'
 .
 - Another detail, is that a lot of soviet promotions were
 battlefield promotions. Couldn't 'buy' elite units, etc. They
 were MADE elite

 Questions?

 (And IS2 really needs an extra unlock or two)

 I'd like conscripts to be able to upgrade to Strelsky also,
 perhaps. Giving them choice of upgrades on vet is nice, too.
 - Krak grenades?
 - Frag grenades?
 - PPSH?
 - RED BANNER (The hero)
 - LMG
 *Only one* Upon vet only.
 (Needs to be unlocked)
 
 Perhaps reduce their pop to half (3?). So they can be
 spammed a bit more.

 Thoughts?
 I know, I know... my style of posting is unique :p

[Loupblanc]

 ? Nothing?
 I thought my suggestions were something worthy of
 discussion, at least. No? With a touch of difference